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Andy Murray's comeback.....

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Re: Andy Murray's comeback.....

Post by naxroy on Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:24 am

nice comeback, but a very very hard oponent to start with

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Re: Andy Murray's comeback.....

Post by Daniel on Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:00 pm

summerblues wrote:
Daniel wrote:Murray is toast.
Sounds ominous in light of this prediction from exactly two years ago:
Daniel wrote:Nadal is toast.
But I hope you are right this time.

Murray isn't a 17 slam champ though with a surface that he has no difficult opponent on.  He's always been a limited player bigged up by the media. He is very unlikely to ever win a slam again.

In fact, Nadal's record off clay has been pathetic too.  Only the easiest US draw ever changed that pattern.

Also, these are two different scenarios.  Your response is a total false equivalency and rather desperate you went back through comments to dredge that up.  Anyone can do that if they are sad enough.  Rose  I'd wager you I am right a whole lot more than wrong.

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Re: Andy Murray's comeback.....

Post by summerblues on Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:54 am

Daniel wrote:
summerblues wrote:
Daniel wrote:Murray is toast.
Sounds ominous in light of this prediction from exactly two years ago:
Daniel wrote:Nadal is toast.
But I hope you are right this time.
[…]
Your response is a total false equivalency and rather desperate you went back through comments to dredge that up.  Anyone can do that if they are sad enough.
smiley

I admit it is slightly below the belt from me.  I came upon your post the other day - believe it or not - by accident.  But once I did see it, it was so perfectly wrong that I could not help bringing it up.

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Re: Andy Murray's comeback.....

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:24 am

First win on the board for Murray.

Still not sure if Wimbledon is a tad too ambitious.

Might worth just playing the 3 setters and target AO 2019 to be competitive again.

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Re: Andy Murray's comeback.....

Post by legendkillar on Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:55 pm

Murray downed by Edmund. 6-4 6-4. Edmund put in quite a polished performance. Found the first serves and was hitting his BH really well. Murray conversely didn't serve well and just look out of gas after the first.

Wimbledon is a bridge too far.

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Re: Andy Murray's comeback.....

Post by legendkillar on Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:56 pm

Murray made the right sensible decision in the end. 

Gave himself far too much to do to even think he would ever be in shape for a Slam. 

Viva Wimbledon!

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Re: Andy Murray's comeback.....

Post by legendkillar on Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:38 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/44676602

Murray further revealing he is going to be managing his schedule much better and poetic he mentions that killing block of 2016.

He insists on being smarter, which fair cop is sound. However, lets see if that's reflective in his approach to play. If he is indeed going to lessen his intensity, then he will need to play much riskier tennis. 

He has to say to himself, if that run at the end of 2016 is what it took to be No.1 and the realisation is he can't do that, then he needs to compensate that with smarter tennis.

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Re: Andy Murray's comeback.....

Post by Tenez on Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:46 am

Murray is smart but to save your body, smartness is pretty useless. You need sheer talent. And Murray has not got it.

Ask yourself, could he have won all those very close matches v Gasquet as he ran less?

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Re: Andy Murray's comeback.....

Post by legendkillar on Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:56 am

Close matches with Gasquet?  Laugh Laugh Laugh 

Only time it became close was in 2015, and what was significant about that Ten? That's right, Gasquet's much improved fitness Winking

Gasquet was running more. Hence the matches became closer. 

Let's see how Murray fares. After all, he has yet to peak Winking

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Re: Andy Murray's comeback.....

Post by naxroy on Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:45 am

murray will be missed for sure

hope he is ready for usopen

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Re: Andy Murray's comeback.....

Post by Tenez on Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:47 pm

legendkillar wrote:Close matches with Gasquet?  Laugh Laugh Laugh 

Only time it became close was in 2015, and what was significant about that Ten? That's right, Gasquet's much improved fitness Winking

Not quite what the stats say. Gasquet could have let their H2H 5/0 if it was not for Murray stealing 2 5 setters after being 2 sets down...winning ugly thanks to tiring Gasquet down.

Whatever you think Gasquet was taking ...it was certainly not as good as what Murray took! Murray is twice the size of Gasquet yet run twice as much and last longer.

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Re: Andy Murray's comeback.....

Post by legendkillar on Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:29 pm

Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Close matches with Gasquet?  Laugh Laugh Laugh 

Only time it became close was in 2015, and what was significant about that Ten? That's right, Gasquet's much improved fitness Winking

Not quite what the stats say. Gasquet could have let their H2H 5/0 if it was not for Murray stealing 2 5 setters after being 2 sets down...winning ugly thanks to tiring Gasquet down.

Whatever you think Gasquet was taking ...it was certainly not as good as what Murray took! Murray is twice the size of Gasquet yet run twice as much and last longer.

The 2 five setters you reference were Wimbledon 08 way before he became the fitness machine and the French Open in 2010 where Gasquet folded like a origami flower! Against a Murray who was still terrible on Clay! Murray didn't need to steal those as Gasquet is the gift that keeps on giving. 

You think it's just fitness that separates these 2. It's not. And again size is irrelevant. Gasquet got fitter and still couldn't get the job done. Stan got fitter and got the job done and started winning Slams. Norman helped massively on all counts. 

You could give Gasquet Usain Bolt legs and stick Murray in a wheelchair and Murray would still win!

Why? Because Gasquet is a mental midget like many other powderpuff players before him, during him and beyond him. Gasquet is that kid you as bully rub your hands in glee when he pitches up to the playground because you know a clip round the head will destroy him mentally. He simply hasn't got the fortitude. You try and try to mask these 'talented' players failure as not being fit enough. For a while he was and what didn't get fitter was his mindset and will. That's why Stan's success is quite extraordinary as he showed no fear in that period 2014-2016 where he'd take on the best and beat them. 

Accept that Gasquet was another in a line of mentally fragile players the game has had in it's droves.

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Re: Andy Murray's comeback.....

Post by Tenez on Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:59 pm

legendkillar wrote:The 2 five setters you reference were Wimbledon 08 way before he became the fitness machine and the French Open in 2010 where Gasquet folded like a origami flower! Against a Murray who was still terrible on Clay! Murray didn't need to steal those as Gasquet is the gift that keeps on giving.
Wrong facts again. Murray talked about adding 7 pounds of muscles!!! end of 2007.
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/tennis/pump-it-like-murray-how-andy-beefed-up-858253.html
Please get the facts right.

You think it's just fitness that separates these 2. It's not. And again size is irrelevant. Gasquet got fitter and still couldn't get the job done. Stan got fitter and got the job done and started winning Slams. Norman helped massively on all counts. 
Gasquet never got fitter. That is another myth. His highest ranking is 2007 at number 7..he was 21!!!
Murray became stronger mentally cause he became stronger physically. It is as simple as that.
They have a year difference but Gasquet when young was by far the better player.

You could give Gasquet Usain Bolt legs and stick Murray in a wheelchair and Murray would still win!
Well yet Murray could not win before bulking up. Another fact!

Why? Because Gasquet is a mental midget like many other powderpuff players before him, during him and beyond him.
He is a mental midget who when playing on a par physically v Murray was simply better. So Murray was even more of a mental midget before bulking up.

Gasquet can still play while Murray has used all his cartilage in his legs. That says it all. The guy with the gutless shots is Murray not Gasquet!


Last edited by Tenez on Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Andy Murray's comeback.....

Post by legendkillar on Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:05 pm

Grief! 

You and facts don't go hand in hand!

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013/10/forget-gasquet-calmer-and-fitter-tsongas-health-not-issue/49632/

There you go. Let me burst your myth bubble with a fact ok Winking

1) So weight gain equates to fitness?? All those fatties will love that believe Winking He got fitter, but nowhere near levels of 2012 onwards. So please.

2) See the link above. Fact! Deal with it. He got fitter, so stop with this ignorant denial. Here's another snipet for you 

https://www.tennisworldusa.org/tennis/news/Tennis_Interviews/48831/richard-gasquet-i-am-ready-to-do-all-in-davis-cup-even-bringing-towels-/

Gasquet got fitter and is the same mental midget he's always been. It may pain you, but that's the true fact.

Game set and match. Winking

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Re: Andy Murray's comeback.....

Post by Tenez on Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:27 pm

legendkillar wrote:Grief! 

You and facts don't go hand in hand!

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013/10/forget-gasquet-calmer-and-fitter-tsongas-health-not-issue/49632/

There you go. Let me burst your myth bubble with a fact ok Winking

1) So weight gain equates to fitness?? All those fatties will love that believe Winking He got fitter, but nowhere near levels of 2012 onwards. So please.

2) See the link above. Fact! Deal with it. He got fitter, so stop with this ignorant denial. Here's another snipet for you 

https://www.tennisworldusa.org/tennis/news/Tennis_Interviews/48831/richard-gasquet-i-am-ready-to-do-all-in-davis-cup-even-bringing-towels-/

Gasquet got fitter and is the same mental midget he's always been. It may pain you, but that's the true fact.

Game set and match. Winking
You have found an article that says Gasquet got fitter and that's it? Fitter by what margins? A bit weak of an argument frankly.

At least you do not deny you were wrong about Murray bulking up earlier. My fact are well documented and undeniable and they are supported by results.

I cannot say the same of yours. Gasquet becoming fitter? did not give him better results than when he was 20. Fact..again.

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Re: Andy Murray's comeback.....

Post by legendkillar on Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:36 pm

Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Grief! 

You and facts don't go hand in hand!

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013/10/forget-gasquet-calmer-and-fitter-tsongas-health-not-issue/49632/

There you go. Let me burst your myth bubble with a fact ok Winking

1) So weight gain equates to fitness?? All those fatties will love that believe Winking He got fitter, but nowhere near levels of 2012 onwards. So please.

2) See the link above. Fact! Deal with it. He got fitter, so stop with this ignorant denial. Here's another snipet for you 

https://www.tennisworldusa.org/tennis/news/Tennis_Interviews/48831/richard-gasquet-i-am-ready-to-do-all-in-davis-cup-even-bringing-towels-/

Gasquet got fitter and is the same mental midget he's always been. It may pain you, but that's the true fact.

Game set and match. Winking
You have found an article that says Gasquet got fitter and that's it? Fitter by what margins? A bit weak of an argument frankly.

At least you do not deny you were wrong about Murray bulking up earlier. My fact are well documented and undeniable and they are supported by results.

I cannot say the same of yours. Gasquet becoming fitter? did not give him better results than when he was 20. Fact..again.

So by that logic, that Murray article is non and void? Thanks Winking 

We are back at square one.

Ten he won more matches in 2012 then in any other season! Fact! 2015 he has the best win percentage of his career since 2006. Fact!

Dare I say it, fanatical you are. But don't worry. I have the facts which are supported by results Winking

He won naff all in major titles, why? Weak mentally. You know it and I know it.

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Re: Andy Murray's comeback.....

Post by Tenez on Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:57 pm

I m not a fan of Gasquet. Never quite was. I am just comparing those 2 cause you clearly are a fan of Murray (an objective one to some extend, I must say) but clearly you are giving him too much credit. he would have got nowhere without that extra fitness...Even n 2008, in spite of having bulcking up, he had to rely on the distance, and the crowd (at Wimbeldon) to overturn a certain defeat.

As mentioned Murray is a gutless shotmaker but a fantastic fighter, helped by those added muscles and extra red cells.

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Re: Andy Murray's comeback.....

Post by legendkillar on Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:34 pm

I am not giving Murray too much credit Ten. I've always frowned the muscle approach. My point is clearly that in the case of Gasquet, he was a guy who got fitter. He did. And despite that and the talent, the mindset didn't change. Against lesser players Gasquet wasn't losing those niggly matches that he would've before. Even though those results improved, the big ones didn't.

It's just like Murray. The extra fitness saw him over the line against much lesser players (even Gasquet to an extent). So Murray could beat likes of a Ferrer, Gasquet, Tsonga more than them him, but against Djokovic, Nadal and Federer couldn't. So the mindset that plagues Gasquet, does Murray. But Murray could put himself in a bracket above them, but below Federer, Djokovic and Nadal. so he occupied a spot that was a beatable big player. 

We've seen Gasquet and Dimitrov work on their fitness and it improved results, but at the big tournaments or the big moments they fold. They are so used to being on the back foot or resigned to defeat. It's the one thing Murray did well was when he knew he had his opponent, he went for the throat. Notice though, when players are not beat and stand their ground and go for Murray, they win. Federer did it in the GS encounters. Got on top of him and bullied him. It's what winners do. 

Even though Murray was ripped, that frame was not built for 7 5 setters hence into the fourth of a match he'd tire and was dead on his feet. He lost weight in 2015 following that back surgery and his longevity in matches improved. Certainly in 2016. However, seems that bulk may have hampered his career longevity.

Which is why I am intrigued to see what Murray does going forward. In that post earlier, he stated couple of years. To me that suggests the same approach with if he does, may as well retire now.

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Re: Andy Murray's comeback.....

Post by Tenez on Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:42 pm

There was no tangible "facts" that Gasquet got fitter in 2013.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Gasquet

His career was plagued with injury and never did we notice stringer shots or better stamina besides the normal improvenment noticed to all players when maturing.

Murray is unlikely to come back to anything significant. He simply never had the talent and now hasn't the fitness.

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Re: Andy Murray's comeback.....

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:33 am

What tangible facts do you need exactly? Are you suggesting that because he didn't win big titles that it's not a reflection in his fitness? The man himself said he was fitter, Forget said he was fitter. That is fact Ten. Might not be your kind of fact that requires some fiction or fantasy, but one I am prepared to accept because the man himself said it!

Fitness and talent are parts of what makes a winner. Mentality is a huge factor.

For the longest time I recall you said of talented players had the fitness or stamina they'd win. Guess what that is partially true. Stan proves that rule can work to a large degree, however what we've seen with Gasquet and even Dimitrov is that you also need to strengthen your mindset.

Just because Nadal, Djokovic and Murray were successful with large parts of fitness, doesn't mean that that becomes the rule of thumb. Stan had to get fitter and stronger both physically and mentally which amplified his talent before he started becoming successful.  

If it helps, other talented players haven't got fitter smiley

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Re: Andy Murray's comeback.....

Post by Tenez on Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:10 am

legendkillar wrote:What tangible facts do you need exactly? Are you suggesting that because he didn't win big titles that it's not a reflection in his fitness? The man himself said he was fitter, Forget said he was fitter. That is fact Ten. Might not be your kind of fact that requires some fiction or fantasy, but one I am prepared to accept because the man himself said it!
More powerful and secure shots (very helpful in big points). You see this in all players who "muscle the ball" a la Murray or Nadal. More stamina, hence wanting to extend rallies instead of shortening it. Gasquet has an appauling record in 5 setters cause he hasn't and never had any decent stamina.
Those are the signs and facts about Gaquet becoming fitter we cannot actually see. You could say Garcia Lopez has got fitter...which might be true.....but no-one noticed and certainly no noticeable improvement in his results.

Fitness and talent are parts of what makes a winner. Mentality is a huge factor.
It is certainly not as simple as that. The most successful players in teh last decades have been those who have bet everything on fitness and tried to absorbe and nullify their opponents talent (natural skills). And Mental strength is proportional to fitness in conditions where hitting winners is extremely risky.
You know all this, don;t you? As it explains exactly why Murray took the route of muscle and sweat to be guaranteed a minimum of success.

For the longest time I recall you said of talented players had the fitness or stamina they'd win. Guess what that is partially true. Stan proves that rule can work to a large degree, however what we've seen with Gasquet and even Dimitrov is that you also need to strengthen your mindset.
I disagree that Stan became successful thanks to his better fitness. It is certainly not the main factor. The mian factor is that his great shots (always had them) became more consistent with time. He simply learnt to play the RRs and like most players using their talent, their shots are simply going to get better with time. Dimi lacks that confidence and may never get it. I however think that is essentially due to his technically weaker BH. If he had the consistency of Fed or Stan on that side, he would be much more dangerous and mentally stronger as a result.
Regarding Gasquet, I simply don;t think he had the maturity and drive to become a top player. This is something that is often overlooked, but the dedication and commitment to the sport is essential to a players success. Safin Nalby, Gasquet
, Coria, never had the drive of a Djokovic or Murray, otherwise they would have had much better results.

J
ust because Nadal, Djokovic and Murray were successful with large parts of fitness, doesn't mean that that becomes the rule of thumb.
Ehh..yes. It is a fact....they have had such consistent results that it simply proves that fitness (and the drive and "knowledge"that goes with it) can take you to the very top consistently. This is what we have seen with those 3 but also Lance and Froome to name others in other sports.
Federer is the exception here. He achieved consistency based on talent essentially.

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Re: Andy Murray's comeback.....

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:31 am

Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:What tangible facts do you need exactly? Are you suggesting that because he didn't win big titles that it's not a reflection in his fitness? The man himself said he was fitter, Forget said he was fitter. That is fact Ten. Might not be your kind of fact that requires some fiction or fantasy, but one I am prepared to accept because the man himself said it!
More powerful and secure shots (very helpful in big points). You see this in all players who "muscle the ball" a la Murray or Nadal. More stamina, hence wanting to extend rallies instead of shortening it. Gasquet has an appauling record in 5 setters cause he hasn't and never had any decent stamina.
Those are the signs and facts about Gaquet becoming fitter we cannot actually see. You could say Garcia Lopez has got fitter...which might be true.....but no-one noticed and certainly no noticeable improvement in his results.

Fitness and talent are parts of what makes a winner. Mentality is a huge factor.
It is certainly not as simple as that. The most successful players in teh last decades have been those who have bet everything on fitness and tried to absorbe and nullify their opponents talent (natural skills). And Mental strength is proportional to fitness in conditions where hitting winners is extremely risky.
You know all this, don;t you? As it explains exactly why Murray took the route of muscle and sweat to be guaranteed a minimum of success.

For the longest time I recall you said of talented players had the fitness or stamina they'd win. Guess what that is partially true. Stan proves that rule can work to a large degree, however what we've seen with Gasquet and even Dimitrov is that you also need to strengthen your mindset.
I disagree that Stan became successful thanks to his better fitness. It is certainly not the main factor. The mian factor is that his great shots (always had them) became more consistent with time. He simply learnt to play the RRs and like most players using their talent, their shots are simply going to get better with time. Dimi lacks that confidence and may never get it. I however think that is essentially due to his technically weaker BH. If he had the consistency of Fed or Stan on that side, he would be much more dangerous and mentally stronger as a result.
Regarding Gasquet, I simply don;t think he had the maturity and drive to become a top player. This is something that is often overlooked, but the dedication and commitment to the sport is essential to a players success. Safin Nalby, Gasquet
, Coria, never had the drive of a Djokovic or Murray, otherwise they would have had much better results.

J
ust because Nadal, Djokovic and Murray were successful with large parts of fitness, doesn't mean that that becomes the rule of thumb.
Ehh..yes. It is a fact....they have had such consistent results that it simply proves that fitness (and the drive and "knowledge"that goes with it) can take you to the very top consistently. This is what we have seen with those 3 but also Lance and Froome to name others in other sports.
Federer is the exception here. He achieved consistency based on talent essentially.

1) Ten that is not objective. Purely because I could have a view that differs from you and in this case we do. So that is not a fact Ten. Just belief.

Here are some actual facts Ten.

Gasquet's 5 setter record in Slams from 2013-2018 W6 and L2. From 2006-2013 W1 L6!!! Accept the facts!!

2) It is that simple Ten. Like I said you could put legs on anyone. Unless they have the strength of mind to embrace and harness that and importantly believe it will improve them, it's totally non and void.

3) Stan was nowhere before 2014. Nowhere near hitting this FH as hard from that point. So fitness helped him massively. Again you choosing not to see the bloody obvious!

4) One thing I'll agree with what you've said. Federer is an exception!

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