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Has Federer Finally Peaked?

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by Daniel on Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:20 pm

luvsports! wrote:a) age 31 vs Berdych (with old racquet) 
b) 35 vs Isner at US exhibition
c) 33 vs Murray
d) 35 vs Rafa 
e) 28 vs Davydenko 
f) 28 vs Djokovic
g) 35 vs Raonic
h) 28 vs Delpo 

None of these clips are remotely close to 2006, Daniel. It is from 2009-2017.

And I am not making the point about 2006.  I'm making the point he can't run like in those clips anymore. You do realize that we aren't in 2009 now?  And that Federer at 35-6 is massively different to 28?  Or that he had a really strong year in 2009, right?  I contend he was better in 2009 compared to now, as well. 

I am not going to spoon feed you matches that you can just Youtube (and should have done already, if you weren't a lazy bastard who just believes what the media tells him).

I keep hearing about how much greater his backhand is... and then I go and look at old matches.  I keep hearing how he never served and volleyed... and he's doing it back then all the time.  GO AND WATCH THEM, LAZY.  Laugh

I even remember Tenez telling me that Borg was a baseliner.  I dare anyone to go and watch his wimbledon matches and tell me he doesn#'t s&v nearly ALL THE TIME.  Some of you guys are buying in to your own bias.

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:29 pm

Daniel,

we all know he s&v-ed ages ago, but how come he is the only one still doing it and winning?

What is stopping the rest of the field?

If he can still do it and nobody else can what is it telling you about his level of tennis?

And tennis in general.

And don’t start about poor opposition becaus it’s not poor.

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by luvsports! on Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:01 pm

Daniel wrote:
luvsports! wrote:a) age 31 vs Berdych (with old racquet) 
b) 35 vs Isner at US exhibition
c) 33 vs Murray
d) 35 vs Rafa 
e) 28 vs Davydenko 
f) 28 vs Djokovic
g) 35 vs Raonic
h) 28 vs Delpo 

None of these clips are remotely close to 2006, Daniel. It is from 2009-2017.

And I am not making the point about 2006.  I'm making the point he can't run like in those clips anymore. You do realize that we aren't in 2009 now?  And that Federer at 35-6 is massively different to 28?  Or that he had a really strong year in 2009, right?  I contend he was better in 2009 compared to now, as well. 

I am not going to spoon feed you matches that you can just Youtube (and should have done already, if you weren't a lazy bastard who just believes what the media tells him).

I keep hearing about how much greater his backhand is... and then I go and look at old matches.  I keep hearing how he never served and volleyed... and he's doing it back then all the time.  GO AND WATCH THEM, LAZY.  Laugh

I even remember Tenez telling me that Borg was a baseliner.  I dare anyone to go and watch his wimbledon matches and tell me he doesn#'t s&v nearly ALL THE TIME.  Some of you guys are buying in to your own bias.

So you chose this clip to contrast his shots in 2009 to the ones from 2015 onwards to show how much quicker he was?

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:30 am

He, at 37, can't run faster than he was at 24-25 but do you understand this tennis is not just about running fast. 

Fed 2017-18 is a way better defender than he was in 05-06.

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by Tenez on Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:41 am

Daniel wrote:[....Some of you guys are buying in to your own bias.
And you don't have any. Glad you joined OTF to enlighten us.

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by Daniel on Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:25 pm

I can criticize Federer when he plays stupid or when he does something stupid, yes (as opposed to ignoring Federer serve In % when it drops below 50 - or blaming it on non existing injuries).  I can praise Nadal and criticize where applicable, yes.

I don't have anywhere near the nonsense floating round my skull as you.  Your bias is so ridiculous that the other week you were claiming that Cilic was the easy QF compared to Fed's opponent.  And you continually bang on about these rigged draws you have no real evidence of.

Honestly, you're as bad as the Nadal fan nutters out there.  If Fed loses, it's an injury.

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by barrystar on Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:32 am

Surely the truth is somewhere in the middle - Federer has to have lost something in terms of speed, movement and stamina from 2006, but gained in aspects of technique and match-experience, and probably also peace of mind.  His coach the other day was quite specific about how he will now not move for shots if he thinks the physical risks to him are not worth keeping in the rally for - as others have noted his defence remains extraordinary, but he uses it when he thinks it counts.  His tactics are much more like Sampras's of protecting his serve and going for one or two opportunities to break that present themselves.  He has said quite clearly that if he thinks he is losing a game he starts preparing himself for the next game (or set).

Is he better now than 10 years ago?  It must be unlikely, but who knows when the sport is relative and not measurable in a way that stretches over generations.  What counts is that he's good enough in 2018.

I'd argue that his early peak was not 2006, but 2007 - he was sublime at the AO that year, he had bumps in the road vs. Canas and Volandri, but he won three slams and maintained a +ve H2H vs. Nadal including winning on clay at the Hamburg final.  

I know excuses stink, but I thought that the mono in 2008 was pretty significant for interfering with his usual training block and whilst he may have overcome the illness quickly, its after effects were longer lasting and the fact that he had such a poor 2008 helps makes 2007 look more like a relative decline from 2006 than it was in reality.  

Anyway - overall he's had much less problems than others, and my Aunty definitely does not have balls...

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by Tenez on Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:50 am

But 2006 was not his peak in terms of stamina. Looks at the TDF winners the average is 30 or above. Mouvement you can easily argue that it also past 28. What's best before 27 is the recovery powers, very important in tennis though. But anticipations gets so much better with time, that if there is a loss of mouvement from 27 is negligeable.

I'd say on the day, for a set maybe 2 fed is way better than pre 2009. In the 2009-2012 period he was day in day out way better than pre2009, essentially cause he had learnt to play the RRunners by then and his shots looks much more secure, better timing from 2009.

The fact is that without his new racquet he would have lost most if not all those matches he won versus Nadal recently. That is difficult to argue against!

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by Daniel on Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:20 am

Barry, the experience angle is obviously true.  But the negatives outweigh the positives, and it's obvious to anyone not bonkers that 2006 Federer would destroy 2017. The results alone demand it. What he is doing at 35+ has never been done by another in the Open Era and probably won't again for a long time.  But you only have to look at his success 2010 onwards compared to 04-07 to see what age does. I'd also argue that having no up and coming players doing anything, and Murray/Djok out of action helps.  A lot.  He's slower now on his feet, slower reaction speeds (demanding larger racquet), much less consistent and deadly forehand, less consistent serve - especially in big moments.

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by barrystar on Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:10 am

I agree that it's most unlikely he's better now than in 2006-2007 - but I don't agree with all your supporting reasons.  I'm not sure what to make of post 2010 when he was battling Nadal/Djoko in their prime (and Murray) with the smaller racquet.  I'd agree he's slower, more easily fatigued, and his recovery time from tournaments is obviously much longer - but the fact that he has mastered playing with a larger racquet goes some way to compensating for that, as does his schedule management, and his match management in not stretching himself during points for lost causes.  

I can't make an accurate judgment about his serve and forehand, but they can't be letting him down too badly since his overall consistency since he came back is as good as ever at 64-5 W-L (92.7%).

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by Tenez on Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:56 am

Daniel wrote:Barry, the experience angle is obviously true.  But the negatives outweigh the positives, and it's obvious to anyone not bonkers that 2006 Federer would destroy 2017. .

So Wilander, Henman, Cash, Rudz, Flemming, Mc and most other commentators who actually won slams and know a bit more about tennis than you and Barry ...are bonkers?

The question is not whether he is now better than 2006/7 cause that is dead obvious he is...just for teh simple reason is that his BH is way better, which means there is not much to exploit nowadays. But the real question woudl be would he have been better in 2009-2012 had he learnt to play with a bigger racquet? That's the only question we have and no measuring stick to make a judgement unfortunately.

I am inclined to think that his peak years would have been 2009-2015 bar back injuries...but there I am not sure.

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by barrystar on Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:22 pm

I agree with Tenez that if he'd gotten to grips with a bigger racquet earlier he would have been more successful in 2009-2015, I also agree that he has has negated the 'go-to' tactic against him in the past of peppering the BH (although of course it did not work for everyone....).

I don't think anyone who says he is better now is bonkers, not at all.  At one level to suggest that he is not playing better than he was in 2006-2007 could be argued to be bonkers because it would imply that the rest of the tour stood still - which should be unlikely.  I just find it so hard to get my head around the idea that a 36yr-old is better than himself as dominant record-setting 25-26-yr-old.

If Fed is better it's in short bursts only.  He cannot maintain the same excellence across 80-90 matches in a season that he used to.

Here's one for you Tenez - where is Nadal in terms of his peak right now, or perhaps more likely where was he last year.

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by Tenez on Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:53 pm

barrystar wrote:I just find it so hard to get my head around the idea that a 36yr-old is better than himself as dominant record-setting 25-26-yr-old.
Although it is easy to understand why he is better now than then. He simply has had 10 more years of coaching! Not being coached by Roche, Edberg or Ljubo but "coached" by the best players in the world. Those players who beat him in 2006/7 and also beat the rest of the field. And there is no substitute to improving without being exposed to playing those top players. And this is the very reason tennis is constantly evolving. Federer played better in FO 2011 final than in 2005-08 finals v Nadal on clay cause he had learnt how to play him there. Had he learnt quicker about his weakness on that surface he woudl have moved to a bigger racquet sooner as well. It took Federer 10 years to understand that his BH with that small racquet was a liability, especially v Nadal. Without Nadal and Djoko he may have never learnt and improved.

If Fed is better it's in short bursts only.  He cannot maintain the same excellence across 80-90 matches in a season that he used to.
That's a no brainer. But one can argue whether he would have been able to play as much in 2006/7 had he faced matured Nadal/Djoko and Murray and the whole field becoming more physical. neither can Djoko, Murray and nadal play as much nowadays either.

Here's one for you Tenez - where is Nadal in terms of his peak right now, or perhaps more likely where was he last year.
He said it himself. He had to improve to stay at the top. he cleaned the clay season like any other best year on clay, winning the FO with even more ease but did much better on HC too. He takes the ball earlier and shorten the rallies more often now than in the past. Of course his game is very physical so I don;t expect him to maintain that level for too long.

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:51 pm

barrystar wrote:I agree with Tenez that if he'd gotten to grips with a bigger racquet earlier he would have been more successful in 2009-2015, I also agree that he has has negated the 'go-to' tactic against him in the past of peppering the BH (although of course it did not work for everyone....).

I don't think anyone who says he is better now is bonkers, not at all.  At one level to suggest that he is not playing better than he was in 2006-2007 could be argued to be bonkers because it would imply that the rest of the tour stood still - which should be unlikely.  I just find it so hard to get my head around the idea that a 36yr-old is better than himself as dominant record-setting 25-26-yr-old.

If Fed is better it's in short bursts only.  He cannot maintain the same excellence across 80-90 matches in a season that he used to.

Here's one for you Tenez - where is Nadal in terms of his peak right now, or perhaps more likely where was he last year.

Mmmmm...can we really say he is better in short bursts, he is number one for crying out loud!

Not to mention last year’s AO plus the gruelling “sunshine double” back to back.

Let’s see if USO dare provide super-slow conditions again! Grr


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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by barrystar on Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:53 pm

Short in terms of spreading out his schedule:  #1 having played 13 tournaments in the last 12 months is extraordinary precisely because the schedule is so light.

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by Daniel on Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:13 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glFUWAPsOKY

5:34.  Let me know when he plays a point like that again.

He can't. You get 2017-2018 Federer to try it and he simply hasn't got the court coverage for starters.

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:19 am

Daniel wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glFUWAPsOKY

5:34.  Let me know when he plays a point like that again.

He can't. You get 2017-2018 Federer to try it and he simply hasn't got the court coverage for starters.
Nice clip...

Showing Federer’s artistry and talent across his whole career.

But not your point.

Federer now does not have to slice so much as his BH is standing on its own two feet equally - topspin and slice.

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by luvsports! on Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:30 am

Not bad court coverage here in 2018.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwIiAFWHjBI

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by summerblues on Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:17 pm

luvsports! wrote:Not bad court coverage here in 2018.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwIiAFWHjBI
Commentators in Daniel's video "are you kidding me?", in yours "you've got to be kidding".

I have to say though that Daniel's video is far more exciting to watch.

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by Daniel on Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:21 pm

luvsports! wrote:Not bad court coverage here in 2018.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwIiAFWHjBI

It's not even close to the one I mentioned. He has bags of time in yours. In mine, Roddick is firing bombs down at him - as well as short balls and low cross courts. Also, the commentator in yours is the most hyped of the lot.  That commentator annoys the hell out of me.  Always says "BOOM!" too, like a teenage idiot.

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by gallery play on Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:18 pm

Daniel wrote:
luvsports! wrote:Not bad court coverage here in 2018.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwIiAFWHjBI

It's not even close to the one I mentioned. He has bags of time in yours. In mine, Roddick is firing bombs down at him - as well as short balls and low cross courts. Also, the commentator in yours is the most hyped of the lot.  That commentator annoys the hell out of me.  Always says "BOOM!" too, like a teenage idiot.
He doesn't always have to be as fast, check the first point of this clip: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjfGIhJmf0Q


Last edited by gallery play on Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by gallery play on Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:19 pm

BTW: Apparently Roger saves his best shots for practice sessions, check this out: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFuChL5Fihs

the last 2.... Laugh  
I like the one against Monfils too

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:51 pm

gallery play wrote:
Daniel wrote:
luvsports! wrote:Not bad court coverage here in 2018.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwIiAFWHjBI

It's not even close to the one I mentioned. He has bags of time in yours. In mine, Roddick is firing bombs down at him - as well as short balls and low cross courts. Also, the commentator in yours is the most hyped of the lot.  That commentator annoys the hell out of me.  Always says "BOOM!" too, like a teenage idiot.
He doesn't always have to be as fast, check the first point of this clip: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjfGIhJmf0Q
The point at 10 min 21 is amazing.

Hasse hammered Fed and threw the kitchen sink at him but it all came back.

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:02 pm

gallery play wrote:BTW: Apparently Roger saves his best shots for practice sessions, check this out: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFuChL5Fihs

the last 2.... Laugh  
I like the one against Monfils too
Where did you find that clip!!!

That crazy BH volley vs Gasquet....
The other day, I actually thought about what kind of shots he may be pulling off in practice as those are usually ten times better than in match situations.

What a super lucky man he is to be able to do what he likes with a ball, such crazy fun.

I’ve never seen his practice session, I think it’s virtually impossible in Wimbledon, they all go to these “orangey” courts and I have no idea where they are.

I am assuming he must have a tennis court in his new house near Zurich...and will probably play with Mirka one day.

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by Tenez on Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:47 am

gallery play wrote:BTW: Apparently Roger saves his best shots for practice sessions, check this out: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFuChL5Fihs

the last 2.... Laugh  
I like the one against Monfils too
Great find. It just shows his shots are as safe as Nadal in a match, just that those "safe" shots are ridiculously close to net and lines.

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by barrystar on Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:55 am

I guess there are plenty of guys who are happy to practice with Federer; we see these clips, but I imagine that most of the time he buckles down and gives the other guys their shot practice as well as taking his own without over-doing the showboating.  

If there was too much of that sort of stuff I'm sure they'd get fed up with him.

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Re: Has Federer Finally Peaked?

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:07 am

I really don’t think Fed’s showing off...just can’t help himself, it’s the overflow of sheer joy of play...like a kitten with a ball od wool.

I suppose, that’s what’s keeping him going.

And other players do it, too.

And they should all do it more often when there is an opportunity.
Life is for living kind of thing.

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