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Transgenderism and the women’s game

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Transgenderism and the women’s game

Post by bogbrush on Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:22 pm

i wonder how long it will be before someone who has been a male professional “identifies” as a woman and demands entry to the women’s draw. As we all know, any man in the top 500 would stroll the title. Even Serena Williams at peak won’t have a chance.

We already see in other sports that this is starting to happen. It’s just that the profile isn’t all that high yet

http://www.wnd.com/2017/03/female-athletes-crushed-by-women-who-were-once-men/

I can’t see how even the Slams could stand against this. The Twitterati and the largely liberal media would glory in the event, sponsors would run for the hills as they get slaughtered for “condoning transgenderism and hate” and more or less being literally Hitler. They could probably be sued.

Women’s sports stands right on the precipice here and it’ll only take one incident to provoke a crisis in tennis. The WTA, in this case, would have to oppose it both for the sake of the tour players and the credibility of the sport but the tide of legislation and loud opinion is against them. Renee Richards was completely different, the prospect now is for a male simply to elect to identify as female and that’s that.

What does everyone think would be the outcome?

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Re: Transgenderism and the women’s game

Post by luvsports! on Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:10 pm

Completely agree.
If it did happen and a wta player complained, they could be hounded out of tennis.
It would make me chuckle if virtual signalling Serena got beat and then started complaining...

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Re: Transgenderism and the women’s game

Post by Daniel on Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:25 pm

This is the thing with the demented left... they use women and minorities of all kinds to feel good and/or win votes - and then it's those two same groups that eventually end up suffering the most when it all backfires (like Islam being imported to the detriment of homosexuals and women).

But, those same groups fall for it.  So fuck them.

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Re: Transgenderism and the women’s game

Post by bogbrush on Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:44 pm

Indeed, the problem with the identity politics is that there’s an implicit assumption that since all are oppressed by white heterosexual men they must all have common cause, but the conflicts between feminism and Islamic fundamentalism are gigantic. 

This conflict between feminism and transgenderism is the first to really open up though. Labour recently had to suspend a left wing female who complained that all-female candidate lists shouldn’t be open to trans; she said something like “if you have a dick you’re a man”.

Luvsports hit on a nice one there; what fun it would be to see Serena lose a big match to a bloke. She’d be stuffed! Maybe we’ll miss that particular fun but surely it’s only a matter of time before someone does this.

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Re: Transgenderism and the women’s game

Post by Daniel on Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:48 pm

They are constantly looking for offence and for a new crusade to get behind - and once they are done with one group, the next is the rage and they're thrown under a bus.  They've already started talking about paedophiles being harmless victims of a bigoted society and that will move on to paedo rights.  And after that no doubt necrophilia rights.  It never ends.  The second they started with this shit, the country should have said FUCK OFF!

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Re: Transgenderism and the women’s game

Post by summerblues on Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:08 am

WTA is obviously on the cutting-edge of societal progress and has this covered:

http://www.wtatennis.com/sites/default/files/wta_gender_participation_policy.pdf

Still, it would be interesting to see how well it would hold up in courts.  If, say, Delpo ever gets in touch with feminine self and discovers that he is a she, would WTA be able to bar her from taking part, or would the courts strike their gender participation policy down?

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Re: Transgenderism and the women’s game

Post by Daniel on Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:09 am

summerblues wrote:WTA is obviously on the cutting-edge of societal progress and has this covered:

http://www.wtatennis.com/sites/default/files/wta_gender_participation_policy.pdf

Still, it would be interesting to see how well it would hold up in courts.  If, say, Delpo ever gets in touch with feminine self and discovers that he is a she, would WTA be able to bar her from taking part, or would the courts strike their gender participation policy down?

I suspect that since money is involved and it would be a huge loss of revenue for real women and sponsors, the gender bending lefties would be shot down.

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Re: Transgenderism and the women’s game

Post by bogbrush on Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:53 am

Thanks, they’ve obviously got a line set down which actually makes sense to most people, that the person truly has committed to the extent of altering their body. I guess they reason that it is vanishingly unlikely that this will happen to one of the top 1000 male professionals so it’d just be another Renee Richards.

The scene is set, then, for a clash between this approach and the radical transgenderism lobby, who hold that simple declaration is all that is required to determine gender.




On a side point, it would amuse me greatly if the ATP resolved the theoretical risk by simply declaring all its events open to any person. It might blunt this highly irritating thing where right-on commentators keep qualifying Federers records by reference to Court, Graf & Williams.


Last edited by bogbrush on Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:56 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Transgenderism and the women’s game

Post by Slippy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:32 am

I don’t think we will ever get to the stage where simply identifying as female will allow you to enter female professional events. That isn’t the case in any of the examples in the article and even the most ardent radical would struggle to justify why someone who wants to be a woman shouldn’t have to undergo hormone therapy before being able to compete as a woman. 

That said, it still seems to me that there is likely to be a huge advantage for someone who has trained/developed for c 25 years as a man. No one is convincing me that putting Anthony Joshua on female hormones for a year would suddenly make it fair for him to enter the women’s  Heavyweight event. With the huge money in women’s tennis, I would have thought someone one day will make a commercial decision that, rather than being ranked say 300 in the men’s game, there’s a huge financial advantage to them in deciding to become a woman.

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Re: Transgenderism and the women’s game

Post by bogbrush on Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:09 pm

You may be right but that standard does not apply universally. There is considerable weight of opinion that is finding its way into general life that simple declaration should suffice. Schools being compelled to change dress codes, for example. And where public life leads how can sport not follow? 

Discrimination law even if so drafted in favour of those participants born with XX chromosomes would be vulnerable to judicial review under Human Rights principles.

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Re: Transgenderism and the women’s game

Post by barrystar on Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:37 am

At the base of this there is a dispute about definition, in particular what should a 'woman' be in law. 

I would maintain that a self-identifying transgender woman is not a 'woman', but should be given equivalent rights and be treated as a 'cis' woman in as many fields of life as possible, but I would draw lines.  For example, I would not allow a self-identifying transgender woman to work in a refuge for female victims of male domestic violence or assault.  Nor would I allow a self-identifying transgender woman to compete as a woman in a woman-only sport, like tennis.  That's the WTA's line, and I don't really think it is controversial except in a very small circle.


Many arguing for inclusion of self-identifying transgender women onto woman-only Labour shortlists take the argument that such a person is a woman, and stop there.  That will produce the same result as wanting to give such a person equivalent rights in many cases, but it's a fundamentally different, and I'd argue, wrong, approach.

We are entering into many areas of real controversy - bb identifies the differences between feminists and the trans lobby who take this absolutist view.  There are also serious disputes between lesbians and gays on the one hand and the absolutist end of the trans lobby.  Another interesting argument is what happens about birth certificates - giving self-identifying transgender women the ability to change birth certificates would de facto make them women from birth - how would my 'exceptions' described above work then?

This one is going to run and run, but I'd be very surprised if the absolutist view becomes law, although there will be real battles over it and, as the Labour party's difficulties have shown, they have the potential to be very nasty.

bb - are you a 'terf', or a 'terf' sympathiser?

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Re: Transgenderism and the women’s game

Post by bogbrush on Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:45 am

I’m certainly not a radical feminist!

I’m of the view that except in a minuscule number of biological hermaphrodites that so-called “trans” is a mental illness and should be treated as such if the sufferer wishes resolution. If not, and they wanted just to live as the opposite sex then of course no worries. I’m a live-and-let-live guy so it’s no skin off my nose, just don’t affect my life and certainly don’t encourage little kids in this.

I cannot understand why the view is taken that the condition must be a result of the entire body being “wrong” rather than a mental irregularity. After all, if people think al sorts of weird delusions we tend to give them medicine rather than indulge them. Anyway, doesn’t the same group tend to argue that the differences between men & women are societally caused and gender is a socially determined construct? I mean, they should make their minds up!

Obviously this makes me literally Hitler in the hate crimes league, though you’re pretty close and probably rank as literally Trump, though in the leftard SJW rankings there’s not much difference now, everyone indulging their rational brain is a Nazi.

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Re: Transgenderism and the women’s game

Post by barrystar on Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:06 am

bogbrush wrote:I’m certainly not a radical feminist!

I’m of the view that except in a minuscule number of biological hermaphrodites that so-called “trans” is a mental illness and should be treated as such if the sufferer wishes resolution. If not, and they wanted just to live as the opposite sex then of course no worries. I’m a live-and-let-live guy so it’s no skin off my nose, just don’t affect my life and certainly don’t encourage little kids in this.

I cannot understand why the view is taken that the condition must be a result of the entire body being “wrong” rather than a mental irregularity. After all, if people think al sorts of weird delusions we tend to give them medicine rather than indulge them. Anyway, doesn’t the same group tend to argue that the differences between men & women are societally caused and gender is a socially determined construct? I mean, they should make their minds up!

Obviously this makes me literally Hitler in the hate crimes league, though you’re pretty close and probably rank as literally Trump, though in the leftard SJW rankings there’s not much difference now, everyone indulging their rational brain is a Nazi.

The contradictions inherent in this reasoning, or something like it, are at the heart of some of the more vicious rows between elements of the trans, gay, and feminist lobbies.

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Re: Transgenderism and the women’s game

Post by bogbrush on Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:46 pm

Indeed, but this is what happens when dogma overtakes rationality.

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Re: Transgenderism and the women’s game

Post by luvsports! on Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:41 pm

bogbrush wrote:I’m certainly not a radical feminist!

I’m of the view that except in a minuscule number of biological hermaphrodites that so-called “trans” is a mental illness and should be treated as such if the sufferer wishes resolution. If not, and they wanted just to live as the opposite sex then of course no worries. I’m a live-and-let-live guy so it’s no skin off my nose, just don’t affect my life and certainly don’t encourage little kids in this.

I cannot understand why the view is taken that the condition must be a result of the entire body being “wrong” rather than a mental irregularity. After all, if people think al sorts of weird delusions we tend to give them medicine rather than indulge them. Anyway, doesn’t the same group tend to argue that the differences between men & women are societally caused and gender is a socially determined construct? I mean, they should make their minds up!

Obviously this makes me literally Hitler in the hate crimes league, though you’re pretty close and probably rank as literally Trump, though in the leftard SJW rankings there’s not much difference now, everyone indulging their rational brain is a Nazi.

Great post.
The stat that blew me away a while back was that the suicide attempt rate in the trans community is 40%, compared to around 5% for the general population.
I believe that the suicide rate for Jews during the holocaust was not even that high. 
But I guess people believe that trans people face the same levels of persecution that the Jews did under Nazi Germany...

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