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Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

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Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by bogbrush on Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:32 pm

Beyond parody......

“You cannot forget that we played all the time on surfaces that he likes more than me. Just accept that and just find different ways to approach the match”

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by summerblues on Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:31 pm

To me this sounds just like standard mind games they all play. He is trying to put pressure on Fed, and talk down his own chances.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by Tenez on Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:57 pm

Not sure it is mind games. Nadal is over the moon to be WN1 and doesn't wish to have his joy tainted by journalists reminding him the sad fact.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by naxroy on Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:34 pm

dont think nadal can think of any sad fact in 2017 really

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by Tenez on Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:02 pm

naxroy wrote:dont think nadal can think of any sad fact in 2017 really
You no, but Nadal yes. Imagine, WN1 and 4/0 v Federer...he'd be unquestionable number 1....but Journalists feel the need to remind him.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:41 am

Well I am glad journalists are prodding Nadal and reminding him who the real number one is! Big Grin

And a classic Nadal answer...he can thank Federer’s parents for having 5 years older...otherwise noone would have heard of little rafito.

It is only Federer’s age that is preventing him from playing clay...but I can bet all I have that if a match was played on Chatrier tomorrrow he would beat Nadal.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by naxroy on Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:00 pm

Tenez wrote:
naxroy wrote:dont think nadal can think of any sad fact in 2017 really
You no, but Nadal yes. Imagine, WN1 and 4/0 v Federer...he'd be unquestionable number 1....but Journalists feel the need to remind him.

imagine, number 1 at 31 with 2 slams in the bag... one of them a 10th roland garros.

sad sad year

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by naxroy on Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:01 pm

he speaks facts, h2h in 2017 has a lot to do with 2 things:

- federer is playing beyond excellence
- they havent meet on clay

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by Tenez on Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:05 pm

naxroy wrote:he speaks facts, h2h in 2017 has a lot to do with 2 things:

- ,,,,,
- they havent meet on clay

Lucky Nadal! This is why he is WN1.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by DECIMA on Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:12 pm

hahah

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by Tenez on Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:21 pm

Not funny, I am convinced that Nadal would lose on clay as well.....especially if they played early, before finals stage.

fed played Nadal on very slow courts this year and creamed him. And they very often had very close games in the past on clay...and clay is the worst surface if you have a SHBH with a small racquet frame...Nadal made the most of it. With a larger frame, I am pretty sure the H2H woudl be very different.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by DECIMA on Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:27 pm

Ah I guess Roger should have played the French Open then man Sad

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by naxroy on Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:27 pm

another fact is nadal is year end number 1

and its nice that federer is in such great form, but he cannot be number one not playing clay season

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by Tenez on Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:28 pm

DECIMA wrote:Ah I guess Roger should have played the French Open then man Sad

He woudl have if he was not 35/36.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by DECIMA on Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:29 pm

Tenez wrote:
DECIMA wrote:Ah I guess Roger should have played the French Open then man Sad

He woudl have if he was not 35/36.
Ah true he's not yet at his peak, few years to go I guess.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by gallery play on Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:42 am

naxroy wrote:another fact is nadal is year end number 1

and its nice that federer is in such great form, but he cannot be number one not playing clay season
He very well could have..had he been fit at the USO

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by naxroy on Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:37 am

nadal won the usopen... and roger was there

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by Tenez on Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:02 am

You burying your head in the sand?

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by gallery play on Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:51 am

naxroy wrote:nadal won the usopen... and roger was there
Federer was not fit enough to make a mark.

Do you think Nadal has a chance against a fit Federer at the USO?
Nadal didn't even had a chance on the slowest HC we've seen this season

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by naxroy on Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:05 pm

I dont know what would have happened, I am not as clever as you guys, but I know what did happen. Nadal has earned more points in the season than federer... actually he clinched year end number 1 before entering the last tournament.

was this caused because federer is worse than him? no. 
was this caused by federer not playing important tournaments throughout the season? yes

would have federer won nadal on clay? I think not, but we wont ever know
would have federer won all he did, playing all season? we wont know either

Is federer better than nadal? in my opinion, yes he is.
does this add any sadness to nadal´s year? no, it doesnt, as nadal knows and is the first to admit that roger is the goat

nadal´s year was tremendous. first year end number 1 over 30. 10th barcelona, montecarlo and roland garros... history making

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by bogbrush on Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:33 pm

My original post wasn't about #1, it was about the irony of Nadal having complaint about the surfaces they've played on. I just shook my head when I read it; it's not even as if all these events were being played on fast hardcourts anyway.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by naxroy on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:48 pm

he was not complaining

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by bogbrush on Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:23 pm

Wellllll... it came across a bit that way. True, it wasn't a straight out complaint but then how would he make that anyway?

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by legendkillar on Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:34 pm

Isn't this similar to the legion of Federer fans complaints about the skewered H2H prior to 2017?

Just saying......

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by barrystar on Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:21 pm

I thought that remark might raise a few eyebrows, but it's a fair enough comment on Federer's wins over him this year - especially when you remember that before this year Nadal had the H2H advantage on hard as well as on clay.

Fed was always v. tight-lipped about the H2H until recently becoming more expansive about how regular clay beat downs used to give a psychological edge to Nadal.  This suggests that, at least away from the clay, he really believes he has Nadal's number.

Whilst I'd be fascinated to see what would happen were they to play again on clay, I think Federer should have played his last tour match on the surface.  This year has not only shown what he's capable of on a reduced schedule, but that his back remains vulnerable and he'll know what else may be vulnerable.  He's done what he needs on clay, by contrast to what he can achieve elsewhere there is little chance of reaping similar rewards on a surface which also asks questions of different muscle groups at some risk to a 36-yr old.  He can continue to enjoy himself, beat the best, and improve on his records on grass and hard if he plays his cards right - I hope he focuses on that.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by Tenez on Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:50 pm

I see it very differently.

I 'd rather have Fed facing his only challenge left in the game (beating Nadal on clay on Bo5) than adding to already unbeatable records.

However I think this year was his last chance to show just that. he looks more vulnerable by the week nowadays.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by barrystar on Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:35 pm

I won't accept that Fed's most important record of 19 slams is unbeatable until such time as Nadal has retired on less - or had a stake hammered through his heart Winking

Also, it wasn't only Nadal as a formidable opponent on clay back in June 2017.  It's easy now to forget that Djokovic, Wawrinka, and Murray all went into the clay season 'looking for form' and, should something click, as potential winners on their past records - you can't be sure he'd have fought through at least 4 matches to meet Nadal (#4 & #5 seeds).

Fed has said he felt exhausted after IW/Miami - I'm sure he made the right call to avoid the physical risks of attuning his body for clay, playing, say, 10 matches on it, and quickly having to re-adjust to grass.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by bogbrush on Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:10 pm

barrystar wrote:I thought that remark might raise a few eyebrows, but it's a fair enough comment on Federer's wins over him this year - especially when you remember that before this year Nadal had the H2H advantage on hard as well as on clay.

Fed was always v. tight-lipped about the H2H until recently becoming more expansive about how regular clay beat downs used to give a psychological edge to Nadal.  This suggests that, at least away from the clay, he really believes he has Nadal's number.

Whilst I'd be fascinated to see what would happen were they to play again on clay, I think Federer should have played his last tour match on the surface.  This year has not only shown what he's capable of on a reduced schedule, but that his back remains vulnerable and he'll know what else may be vulnerable.  He's done what he needs on clay, by contrast to what he can achieve elsewhere there is little chance of reaping similar rewards on a surface which also asks questions of different muscle groups at some risk to a 36-yr old.  He can continue to enjoy himself, beat the best, and improve on his records on grass and hard if he plays his cards right - I hope he focuses on that.
I couldn’t agree more.

The matter for Federer is enjoying tennis. Yes, it might be nice to beat Nadal on clay bo5, just as #9 Wimbledon would be great, but Federer has been making crystal clear (such as by skipping Paris) that being healthy so he can enjoy his tennis comes top.

For that reason I feel sure he has played his last on clay, save if he has a one-off chance to take #1 or something without any risk at all.


Last edited by bogbrush on Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by bogbrush on Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:11 pm

legendkillar wrote:Isn't this similar to the legion of Federer fans complaints about the skewered H2H prior to 2017?

Just saying......
You calling Nadal a deluded fanboy?  Winking

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by Daniel on Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:27 pm

DECIMA wrote:
Tenez wrote:
DECIMA wrote:Ah I guess Roger should have played the French Open then man Sad

He woudl have if he was not 35/36.
Ah true he's not yet at his peak, few years to go I guess.


Laugh

On a serious note though, you can't deny that Nadal is the most narcissistic and self serving player there is?  The audacity to whinge about the Tour Finals surface with all the clay Masters 1000 v Grass.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by summerblues on Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:17 am

barrystar wrote:He's done what he needs on clay, by contrast to what he can achieve elsewhere there is little chance of reaping similar rewards on a surface which also asks questions of different muscle groups at some risk to a 36-yr old.  He can continue to enjoy himself, beat the best, and improve on his records on grass and hard if he plays his cards right - I hope he focuses on that.
Fully agree.  He should only play on clay if he feels it neither creates health risks, nor drains him of energy elsewhere.  If that means he will never play on clay again, so be it.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by legendkillar on Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:17 am

bogbrush wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Isn't this similar to the legion of Federer fans complaints about the skewered H2H prior to 2017?

Just saying......
You calling Nadal a deluded fanboy?  Winking


While I am at it Laugh

I think it was more observational that in a sense his views were if not similar in nature to those of Federer fans when looking at the H2H which predominately took place on Clay.

Similarly with barry's post about Federer having Nadal's number, the statement reeks of Nadal on the other side of the coin feeling he can't beat Federer on the Hard stuff more so when the tried and tested BH pummeling is fraught with danger.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:02 am

Daniel wrote:
DECIMA wrote:
Tenez wrote:
DECIMA wrote:Ah I guess Roger should have played the French Open then man Sad

He woudl have if he was not 35/36.
Ah true he's not yet at his peak, few years to go I guess.


Laugh

On a serious note though, you can't deny that Nadal is the most narcissistic and self serving player there is?  The audacity to whinge about the Tour Finals surface with all the clay Masters 1000 v Grass.
Absolutely!

Imagine how many masters 1000 titles Federer would have had if Halle rightfully had that status.

Nadal is such an engineered and propped up player it’s not real, like a lab experiment.


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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:07 am

naxroy wrote:I dont know what would have happened, I am not as clever as you guys, but I know what did happen. Nadal has earned more points in the season than federer... actually he clinched year end number 1 before entering the last tournament.

was this caused because federer is worse than him? no. 
was this caused by federer not playing important tournaments throughout the season? yes

would have federer won nadal on clay? I think not, but we wont ever know
would have federer won all he did, playing all season? we wont know either

Is federer better than nadal? in my opinion, yes he is.
does this add any sadness to nadal´s year? no, it doesnt, as nadal knows and is the first to admit that roger is the goat

nadal´s year was tremendous. first year end number 1 over 30. 10th barcelona, montecarlo and roland garros... history making

You are either super naive or as hypocritical as your hero and his uncle.

Nadal is living to bring Federer slam record down and proclaim himself the goat.


I remember the years he was eternal number two behind then younger and fresher Federer....claiming how he is happy to be there...

I can’t stand such gutless doublespeak.

That’s why I loved Nole...no BS frim him...even though if it may have been in your face...but it was so refreshing...and so vrilliant that it was he who stopped Nadal from hauling more dracula slams.


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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by barrystar on Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:38 am

noleisthebest wrote:

Imagine how many masters 1000 titles Federer would have had if Halle rightfully had that status.

Nadal is such an engineered and propped up player it’s not real, like a lab experiment.


You can't give Masters status to Halle when it has always been played in the same week as Queens - a Masters Tournament has to be the only one in the calendar that week and in order to do that the organisers have to be confident that it will attract the top players.  If there is to be a grass Masters there are loads of difficult issues: should it should be Queens or Halle, which one do you move to the week before or after, and will you get enough of the top 10 to commit to the one you choose anyway.  They've already added a week to the grass season between RG and W; but to make a grass masters they'd probably have to add another week, which would require a significantly different balance to the ATP season.

I love grass court tennis, it's quite my favourite, but we have to accept that huge numbers of players from Continental Europe and Hispanic America play predominately on clay, and most others on hard - grass surfaces capable of supporting a tennis match only grow in temperate climates, and are only playable on for the short summer (even then they require more maintenance than any other surface and there are issues of wear and of moisture early in the morning and late in the evening which can make them dangerous).  Wimbledon itself was facing boycotts from clay court specialists during the 1990's who felt that the seeding was making a difficult tournament for them entirely pointless - hence changes were made to the seeding arrangements and, many say, the conditions.

There's no point raging against that - and whilst I am no fan of Nadal's brand of tennis, he is far from a pure dirt-baller.  His career away from clay would make him a 'hall-of-fame' player in its own right: his 6 slams at all three of USO/W/Aus match Becker & Edberg; his 8 Masters on hard alone would have him in the top 15; and he won the Olympics on hard.  I'm sure you will have watched him live and seen that in addition to his ability to grind (I don't like it either), he is capable of playing with versatility, he has an array of attacking shots and soft hands at the net.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by Tenez on Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:43 am

summerblues wrote:
barrystar wrote:He's done what he needs on clay, by contrast to what he can achieve elsewhere there is little chance of reaping similar rewards on a surface which also asks questions of different muscle groups at some risk to a 36-yr old.  He can continue to enjoy himself, beat the best, and improve on his records on grass and hard if he plays his cards right - I hope he focuses on that.
Fully agree.  He should only play on clay if he feels it neither creates health risks, nor drains him of energy elsewhere.  If that means he will never play on clay again, so be it.

You guys have little faith in Federer. Frankly, the only interesting thing left in tennis is whether Fed can beat Nadal in B05 on clay. The rest is irrelevant. Nadal will never get to 19...and Fed making it 20 in RG, woudl seal the deal...if he can't so be it.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by Tenez on Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:54 am

barrystar wrote:...
I love grass court tennis, it's quite my favourite, but we have to accept that huge numbers of players from Continental Europe and Hispanic America play predominately on clay, and most others on hard - grass surfaces capable of supporting a tennis match only grow in temperate climates, and are only playable on for the short summer (even then they require more maintenance than any other surface and there are issues of wear and of moisture early in the morning and late in the evening which can make them dangerous).  Wimbledon itself was facing boycotts from clay court specialists during the 1990's who felt that the seeding was making a difficult tournament for them entirely pointless - hence changes were made to the seeding arrangements and, many say, the conditions.

I would not agree with that. Grass is all about eye/hand coordination (or certainly used to). So no player actually train on it on regular basis and most players train on clay when young to learn the shots, and more importantly, all players play the same tournaments year in year out (on average). In France, clay is the main surface like in Spain, yet most French players can do well on grass cause they have a more creative game than Spanish players which consists essentially bringing the ball back at nausea. It was like that when McEnroe was playing Wilander or Krishnan playing Nystrom. Becker never trained on grass when he won it in 85. Neither did Borg.

That is why we like grass....cause it is in a way a very neutral surface in the sense that suddenly you have to rely to natural skills instead of physical ones. Nadal Djoko and Murray woudl btw have gone nowhere on grass had the conds (smaller balls, inconsistent ground and old strings) had remained the same.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by barrystar on Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:27 am

I don't think we are that far apart except (i) I would say that during the 1990's grass was starting to reward big serving excessively and there was not as much room for hand-eye coordination amid the bullets as there had been in the 1980's; (ii) I always think it's a a bit dodgy to speculate on how tennis players would have developed from childhood in different conditions with different equipment - whilst I agree it's pretty obvious that Federer would have found a way to manage in almost any environment and any era, I would not assume that the others could not have adapted different types of games successfully in response to learning in different circumstances.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by Daniel on Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:53 am

Tennis was meant to be played on grass.  All other surfaces really aren't tennis strictly speaking.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by naxroy on Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:12 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
naxroy wrote:I dont know what would have happened, I am not as clever as you guys, but I know what did happen. Nadal has earned more points in the season than federer... actually he clinched year end number 1 before entering the last tournament.

was this caused because federer is worse than him? no. 
was this caused by federer not playing important tournaments throughout the season? yes

would have federer won nadal on clay? I think not, but we wont ever know
would have federer won all he did, playing all season? we wont know either

Is federer better than nadal? in my opinion, yes he is.
does this add any sadness to nadal´s year? no, it doesnt, as nadal knows and is the first to admit that roger is the goat

nadal´s year was tremendous. first year end number 1 over 30. 10th barcelona, montecarlo and roland garros... history making

You are either super naive or as hypocritical as your hero and his uncle.

Nadal is living to bring Federer slam record down and proclaim himself the goat.


I remember the years he was eternal number two behind then younger and fresher Federer....claiming how he is happy to be there...

I can’t stand such gutless doublespeak.

That’s why I loved Nole...no BS frim him...even though if it may have been in your face...but it was so refreshing...and so vrilliant that it was he who stopped Nadal from hauling more dracula slams.


you should respect other posters a little bit more

1- nadal is not my hero, I am a tennis fan and a nadal fan
2- it is not the first time you say I am not posting what I think. I dont know what kind of existence you have, but I post exactly what I think.

its perfectly coherent to admit your rival is better than you and still fight to get as close as you can or surpass him if possible.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by Tenez on Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:53 pm

barrystar wrote:I don't think we are that far apart except (i) I would say that during the 1990's grass was starting to reward big serving excessively and there was not as much room for hand-eye coordination amid the bullets as there had been in the 1980's;
That's when it actually gets down to eye/hand coord. I agree it was too much back then but as a result there was no room for players like Wilander or Chang which relied a lot more on fitness. One big serve was not enough. One had to be able to return too and why Agassi could compete with them.



(ii) I always think it's a a bit dodgy to speculate on how tennis players would have developed from childhood in different conditions with different equipment - whilst I agree it's pretty obvious that Federer would have found a way to manage in almost any environment and any era, I would not assume that the others could not have adapted different types of games successfully in response to learning in different circumstances.
There is not much speculation in it, It is based on results. Whatever the conds trained, a player will make the most of his natural skills. In other words, trying to play safely with the minimum margins required.

You remembered Nadal/Toni saying why try a 60% winner now when 3 shots later it can be an 85% chance winner? Well the answer to that is because he can afford to run 3 more rallies per points while many others can't and that he can't make it 85% straight away but has to tire his opponent hopping he won't even have to pull a winner. Look at how dominant Nadal is on slow conds and so average as soon as it gets fast-ish. Murray's serve, Djoko scrapping skills would have been weak weapons on fast 90s conds. Little speculations I think.
Likewise for Pete, he coudl win 14 slams on fast conds, not even a final at RG. I'd say skilled players coudl train hard to become good on slow surfaces, the other way around is usually not right.

I think players make the most of their skills regardless where they train on. Even Nadal tries hard to take the ball earlier now cause he has no choice. Had he trained to take the ball earlier and succeeded to it back then, he'd have won much more outside clay. So why did he try then? Cause he was not comfy and consistent enough to. That was so clear when he had no solution to Djoko while recognising that Djoko was able to take the ball earlier.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:13 pm

naxroy wrote:
you should respect other posters a little bit more
1- nadal is not my hero, I am a tennis fan and a nadal fan
2- it is not the first time you say I am not posting what I think. I dont know what kind of existence you have, but I post exactly what I think.
its perfectly coherent to admit your rival is better than you and still fight to get as close as you can or surpass him if possible.
Hehe naxy,

you can dress it any way you like but you are a blind nadal fan...and a blind nadal fan can’t be a tennis fan.
Why?
Because he is the death of tennis.

You barely ever comment on anything except him....and even then it’s the defence mode...all classic symptoms of Nadal fandom...

Now that he is out of WTF, you can enjoy some nice tennis...like a real tennis fan would...WITHOUT talking about Nadal. (and yes, we gather you think Federer is the goat).



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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by naxroy on Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:12 pm

I dont think I enjoy it that much here.

good luck people

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by barrystar on Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:13 pm

Tenez wrote:
barrystar wrote:I don't think we are that far apart except (i) I would say that during the 1990's grass was starting to reward big serving excessively and there was not as much room for hand-eye coordination amid the bullets as there had been in the 1980's;
That's when it actually gets down to eye/hand coord. I agree it was too much back then but as a result there was no room for players like Wilander or Chang which relied a lot more on fitness. One big serve was not enough. One had to be able to return too and why Agassi could compete with them.



(ii) I always think it's a a bit dodgy to speculate on how tennis players would have developed from childhood in different conditions with different equipment - whilst I agree it's pretty obvious that Federer would have found a way to manage in almost any environment and any era, I would not assume that the others could not have adapted different types of games successfully in response to learning in different circumstances.
There is not much speculation in it, It is based on results. Whatever the conds trained, a player will make the most of his natural skills. In other words, trying to play safely with the minimum margins required.

You remembered Nadal/Toni saying why try a 60% winner now when 3 shots later it can be an 85% chance winner? Well the answer to that is because he can afford to run 3 more rallies per points while many others can't and that he can't make it 85% straight away but has to tire his opponent hopping he won't even have to pull a winner. Look at how dominant Nadal is on slow conds and so average as soon as it gets fast-ish. Murray's serve, Djoko scrapping skills would have been weak weapons on fast 90s conds. Little speculations I think.
Likewise for Pete, he coudl win 14 slams on fast conds, not even a final at RG. I'd say skilled players coudl train hard to become good on slow surfaces, the other way around is usually not right.

I think players make the most of their skills regardless where they train on. Even Nadal tries hard to take the ball earlier now cause he has no choice. Had he trained to take the ball earlier and succeeded to it back then, he'd have won much more outside clay. So why did he try then? Cause he was not comfy and consistent enough to. That was so clear when he had no solution to Djoko while recognising that Djoko was able to take the ball earlier.  

We are hardly having a shouting match, I'd counter:

(a) I'm pleased you agree that the 1990's went a bit too far - your good example of Agassi being a rare (the only?) guy who could cope really successfully with the power guys rather proves the point.  What  I missed in the 1990's was duels involving mixed styles with players like Jarryd, Mercir, Leconte, Lendl, & Cash who could go deep and played in thrilling matches alongside the more obvious powerful S&V players.  As the 90's wore on, the S of the S&V increased in importance at the expense of the V.  Sure, you couldn't go deep at Wimbledon by running around, but amongst many of the more successful also-rans (e.g. not including Sampras or Rafter) pure power was more important than, for example, athleticism or soft hands at the net.

(b) Sure a player will seek to maximise his natural skills in the way that best compliments the equipment and conditions he plays in.  I see your point, but I'm not sure you are right about Murray/Djoko/Nadal in the 1990's - they are all multiple Wimbledon winners and recognised as superb returners which, as Agassi showed, could unsettle pure power players in even the fastest conditions since once you have those guys in a rally they are on the back foot.  I think your point may have less purchase in the time of wooden racquets - but as I say there's quite a lot of speculation.  Sampras had thalassemia, so he may not be the best example of poor (or relatively poor) adaptation to a slower surface, but there are others such as Rafter, Becker, McEnroe, Stich, and Edberg, some of whom did rather better than Sampras on clay, but were not so conspicuously better on slow courts than players like Wilander, Lendl, or Courier were on faster Courts so as to prove your point.  Borg is a bit of a counter-example of a player whose metronomic baseline style was far more suited to clay, but who managed to dominate Wimbledon before the true power era.  Anyway, whilst agreeing with you that I don't enjoy watching it so much, I think you slightly decry the difficulty of Nadal's style - it's not all about running, it's also about being able to match that with consistently probing and accurate shots (plenty of fantastic angles) and thinking several shots ahead - the ability to repeat a technically difficult action to a high standard and add variation is not necessarily a skill that can be more easily learned by somebody who is able to do the same action on more intermittent basis, even if that second person is better at his best than the first.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by DECIMA on Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:36 pm

naxroy wrote:I dont think I enjoy it that much here.

good luck people
No, stay! Ignore her criticisms of you for being a Nadal fan- she herself jumped ship from Djokovic to Federer!

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by Tenez on Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:44 pm

DECIMA wrote:
naxroy wrote:I dont think I enjoy it that much here.

good luck people
No, stay! Ignore her criticisms of you for being a Nadal fan- she herself jumped ship from Djokovic to Federer!
Laugh So there is hope.

C'mon Naxroy, you are not going to give way to nitb...or anyone for that matter.

Having said that, you might not enjoy lots of posts here as it is quite an "anti-road runner" forum more favourable to great shot makers.

Still a good forum to learn about the dynamics of the game.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by DECIMA on Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:47 pm

NITB was about as faithful to Djokovic as he was to his wife- quite sad really!

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by naxroy on Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:51 pm

Tenez wrote:

Having said that, you might not enjoy lots of posts here as it is quite an "anti-road runner" forum more favourable to great shot makers.

Still a good forum to learn about the dynamics of the game.

great forum indeed

I like reading others opinions and much more those opposed to mine

I dont like people calling me hyprocrite for expressing mine though

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:06 pm

Tenez wrote:
DECIMA wrote:
naxroy wrote:I dont think I enjoy it that much here.

good luck people
No, stay! Ignore her criticisms of you for being a Nadal fan- she herself jumped ship from Djokovic to Federer!
Laugh So there is hope.

C'mon Naxroy, you are not going to give way to nitb...or anyone for that matter.

Having said that, you might not enjoy lots of posts here as it is quite an "anti-road runner" forum more favourable to great shot makers.

Still a good forum to learn about the dynamics of the game.

You’re right....

I am too much for people here to handle...and I feel my talent is wasted on dullards... diva

I am going to be very busy for quite some time anyway, so won’t be posting much.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

Post by barrystar on Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:47 pm

noleisthebest wrote:


I am too much for people here to handle...and I feel my talent is wasted on dullards... diva


If I thought that about myself, even if partly in jest, I'd have a re-think about the nature of my contributions to the forum.

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Re: Nadal whines over surface match ups with Federer in 2017

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