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This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by DECIMA on Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:45 am

Legendkiller, I said a while ago it's an obvious U-turn, I don't see why you keep bringing this issue up to defend him here.
Your post actually proves my point, despite its blatant attempt to selectively quote... just because you haven't quoted his contradictions, doesn't mean he didn't say it, all we have to do is check the thread.

As well as not quoting the bit where he contradicted himself, you missed out this bit:
bogbrush wrote:
DECIMA wrote:Let me just summarise so far, and you can point out if there's anything without clarity:
-Your ideal society/nation would have taxation to fund defence spending.
-First priority would be to spend on protecting country from nukes and drones
-If this priority was either completed or realistically on track you would:
Be prepared to spend the defence money on poor civilians who had treatable cancer due to a chemical attack by a hostile foreign nation... thus neutralising the attack in terms of harm caused to citizens.
No, my ideal society wouldn't have nations states BUT right now as things are I accept with regret that due to millenia of cultural divergence there are nigh-insurmountable barriers to that model.

After that unfortunately all sorts of perverse messed up bahaviour follows and what you describe seems about as sensible as it can be in the messed up circumstances.

This isn't difficult:
He said nation states aren't ideal but right now UK can't abandon them as alternative is worse. Then he said taxes for defence followed. Then a day later he said even if we have borders, defence should be funded for by voluntary contributions. Taxes are compulsory, voluntary contributions aren't. Once again, the fact that's a U-turn is not an opinion, it's a fact. Look up the dictionary if you're unsure.


Last edited by DECIMA on Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:17 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by DECIMA on Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:53 am

bogbrush wrote:
DECIMA wrote:
bogbrush wrote:name one outbreak of illness that has ever been handled via compulsory national quarantine.
Sure, not a national quarantine, but there were many compulsory local ones during the SARS outbreak in China in the early 2003.
One of the problems was that people in SARS affected villages started panicking and running away from the village to save themselves.
Unfortunately this had the effect of massively spreading the disease across China.
To contain this, a quarantine was imposed on those village sites on China, which helped stop the endemic and save millions of lives.

How would you deal with this?
This is very revealing.

Your example of a good way to handle an epidemic is to adopt the Chinese model of government; one where people have no say over their lawmaking and they are compelled at gunpoint to do what they are told by the government. If I wanted to make a contrast from my opinions, which essentially are that the default condition of mankind should be that we are free to make our own choices, and yours, I couldn't have found a more stark way of doing it.

I would rather we act on information as rational beings and take the consequences than submit myself to this type of subjugation.
I'm sorry, that's the sort of response I'd expect from a tabloid newspaper, not you.
Just because I agree with the decision to impose quarantines to contain SARS, does not mean I condone the 'Chinese model of government, on where people have no say over their lawmaking...'
I chose the China SARS outbreak at random, but there are also many similar cases in non Communist countries in Europe. If you want I can use those examples, but it doesn't change my fundamental question or substance of the issues.

How would you deal with the set of problems of villagers from SARS infested villages panicking and running away from those villages, and thus spreading the deadly disease further?

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:41 am

DECIMA wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
DECIMA wrote:
bogbrush wrote:name one outbreak of illness that has ever been handled via compulsory national quarantine.
Sure, not a national quarantine, but there were many compulsory local ones during the SARS outbreak in China in the early 2003.
One of the problems was that people in SARS affected villages started panicking and running away from the village to save themselves.
Unfortunately this had the effect of massively spreading the disease across China.
To contain this, a quarantine was imposed on those village sites on China, which helped stop the endemic and save millions of lives.

How would you deal with this?
This is very revealing.

Your example of a good way to handle an epidemic is to adopt the Chinese model of government; one where people have no say over their lawmaking and they are compelled at gunpoint to do what they are told by the government. If I wanted to make a contrast from my opinions, which essentially are that the default condition of mankind should be that we are free to make our own choices, and yours, I couldn't have found a more stark way of doing it.

I would rather we act on information as rational beings and take the consequences than submit myself to this type of subjugation.
I'm sorry, that's the sort of response I'd expect from a tabloid newspaper, not you.
Just because I agree with the decision to impose quarantines to contain SARS, does not mean I condone the 'Chinese model of government, on where people have no say over their lawmaking...'
I chose the China SARS outbreak at random, but there are also many similar cases in non Communist countries in Europe. If you want I can use those examples, but it doesn't change my fundamental question or substance of the issues.

How would you deal with the set of problems of villagers from SARS infested villages panicking and running away from those villages, and thus spreading the deadly disease further?
Well I'm sorry but it was the example you used. I said the question was irrelevent because since when were epidemics handled by compulsory isolation and you told me about China. If you've got a better example then fire away.

Until you do your second question is pointless, even though I did answer it. It's there in the post you quoted.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:42 am

DECIMA wrote:Legendkiller, I said a while ago it's an obvious U-turn, I don't see why you keep bringing this issue up to defend him here.
Your post actually proves my point, despite its blatant attempt to selectively quote... just because you haven't quoted his contradictions, doesn't mean he didn't say it, all we have to do is check the thread.

As well as not quoting the bit where he contradicted himself, you missed out this bit:
bogbrush wrote:
DECIMA wrote:Let me just summarise so far, and you can point out if there's anything without clarity:
-Your ideal society/nation would have taxation to fund defence spending.
-First priority would be to spend on protecting country from nukes and drones
-If this priority was either completed or realistically on track you would:
Be prepared to spend the defence money on poor civilians who had treatable cancer due to a chemical attack by a hostile foreign nation... thus neutralising the attack in terms of harm caused to citizens.
No, my ideal society wouldn't have nations states BUT right now as things are I accept with regret that due to millenia of cultural divergence there are nigh-insurmountable barriers to that model.

After that unfortunately all sorts of perverse messed up bahaviour follows and what you describe seems about as sensible as it can be in the messed up circumstances.

This isn't difficult:
He said nation states aren't ideal but right now UK can't abandon them as alternative is worse. Then he said taxes for defence followed. Then a day later he said even if we have borders, defence should be funded for by voluntary contributions. Taxes are compulsory, voluntary contributions aren't. Once again, the fact that's a U-turn is not an opinion, it's a fact. Look up the dictionary if you're unsure.
You're really getting desperate here. I suggest you drop it, this isn't good.

I don't even know what point you're trying to make, other than picking a fight. You seem to have realised that this attempt to lead me into agreeing with compulsory sequestration of assets for health care has failed (which it always would do because my beliefs are there are better ways to achieve these outcomes) and now you're just frustrated. Let it go.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by DECIMA on Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:45 am

bogbrush wrote: I suggest you drop it, this isn't good.
I did drop it, but he wrote another long post with selected quotes.
I do think you were a bit dishonest there, but it's ok, we've moved the debate on now.


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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by DECIMA on Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:57 am

bogbrush wrote:
Well I'm sorry but it was the example you used.
I did give this example but at no point did I indicate that I was happy with China's model of government overall, or that I wanted a lack of democracy like there is in China, those claims were ridiculous.

bogbrush wrote:I said the question was irrelevent because since when were epidemics handled by compulsory isolation and you told me about China. If you've got a better example then fire away.
I have an example in it being implemented in Canada at the same time:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2808319/
This study found that quarantine use in Canada (which uses your English common law system) reduced the spread of SARS.

Also I know you said you already answered the previous question, but can you clarify/expand on that too? How would your society deal with those villagers who, scared by the spread in their village, wanted to flee and thus massively spread SARS. Apologies if you you felt you already answered, but wanted a few more details.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:43 pm

Well I wouldn't corral them in concentration camps at gunpoint, if that's what you mean.

I'd set up alternative refuges and help out because it'd be in my interest to reduce their incentive to bring the disease to me.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by DECIMA on Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:03 pm

bogbrush wrote:Well I wouldn't corral them in concentration camps at gunpoint, if that's what you mean.
Eh? Where on earth did that come from?

bogbrush wrote:
I'd set up alternative refuges and help out because it'd be in my interest to reduce their incentive to bring the disease to me.
Yeah but if you were rich enough to personally set up a refuge, you'd probably find ways to isolate yourself from potential contagious people.
I don't see how an alternative refuge is much help either, contagious people going there would spread the disease on the way.
Did you read the study which showed how Canada had saved so many lives with quarantines in 2003?

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by summerblues on Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:55 am

Tenez wrote:Have you looked at the Greek model for democracy? This is where it started and it's in my view, probably the best. It worked well for 300 years. Of course it would need updating with modern times (no slaves, women could be elected, etc..) but it is based on random draw amongst citizens, a bit like  our justice system picks up citizens in trials.
I don't know.  Would it work?  Those that have most influence would not readily give it up to a random group of people.  But also, most people would probably have little interest in trying to directly run a government.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by summerblues on Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:56 am

DECIMA wrote:rather than misunderstanding the points being made
What did I misunderstand?

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:31 pm

summerblues wrote:
Tenez wrote:Have you looked at the Greek model for democracy? This is where it started and it's in my view, probably the best. It worked well for 300 years. Of course it would need updating with modern times (no slaves, women could be elected, etc..) but it is based on random draw amongst citizens, a bit like  our justice system picks up citizens in trials.
I don't know.  Would it work?  Those that have most influence would not readily give it up to a random group of people.  But also, most people would probably have little interest in trying to directly run a government.
Not sure whether it would work but the very purpose of it is to take the power away from those with "influence". For instance rich people were not allowed to be part of the chosen pool. They respected rich people but they simply could not be chosen randomly. Greeks knew power corrupts so no-one was allowed to stay longer than the given duration. 

But also, most people would probably have little interest in trying to directly run a government.
That's exactly those kind of people whom we need governing....not those with an interest.

There is a guy in France "Etienne Chouard" who is trying to spread the greek concept of democracy. Its quite interesting but as you said the main hurdle will be to take it away from people currently in power.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:39 pm

DECIMA wrote:
bogbrush wrote:Well I wouldn't corral them in concentration camps at gunpoint, if that's what you mean.
Eh? Where on earth did that come from?

bogbrush wrote:
I'd set up alternative refuges and help out because it'd be in my interest to reduce their incentive to bring the disease to me.
Yeah but if you were rich enough to personally set up a refuge, you'd probably find ways to isolate yourself from potential contagious people.
I don't see how an alternative refuge is much help either, contagious people going there would spread the disease on the way.
Did you read the study which showed how Canada had saved so many lives with quarantines in 2003?  
Sorry, but if you want these people to stay isolated against their wishes are you going to enforce it or wave them through? And if you need to make your enforcement work aren’t you going to use guns. Like China?

In the end you have to persuade people otherwise they’ll move. To do that you have to make it better for them.


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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:41 pm

Tenez wrote:
There is a guy in France "Etienne Chouard" who is trying to spread the greek concept of democracy. Its quite interesting but as you said the main hurdle will be to take it away from people currently in power.
And if he ever got it, to give it away. That’s the test all revolutionaries have always failed.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by summerblues on Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:31 pm

Tenez wrote:Not sure whether it would work but the very purpose of it is to take the power away from those with "influence". [...] That's exactly those kind of people whom we need governing....not those with an interest.
I just think that in practice it will have to be those "with interest".  I think in every society those who desire power will manage to "bubble up to the top".  I think the best we can hope for is to put some constraints in place that will mitigate some of the worst abuses.

I think the ones who gain power are crooked both here and in Stalinist Russia, but still there is a world of difference between the two.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by summerblues on Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:34 pm

bogbrush wrote:And if he ever got it, to give it away. That’s the test all revolutionaries have always failed.
I would not even say "failed".  I think it is a feature, not a bug.  As Orwell said:
One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:47 pm

bogbrush wrote:
Tenez wrote:
There is a guy in France "Etienne Chouard" who is trying to spread the greek concept of democracy. Its quite interesting but as you said the main hurdle will be to take it away from people currently in power.
And if he ever got it, to give it away. That’s the test all revolutionaries have always failed.

This is what this random system would try to avoid. A revolutionary knows that as soon as he retires from power or were to allow people to vote, then the richer and powerful would turn this "democracy" to their advantage (like we have now). Money buys votes.  
Like we are randomly  forced to be part of a jury in our justice system, we also should be part of governments. We should be writing our own constitution, not having to rely on a few to do it for us.

At least that is the idea....and it worked fine for over 300 years as I said by those who invented democracy.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:33 am

summerblues wrote:
bogbrush wrote:And if he ever got it, to give it away. That’s the test all revolutionaries have always failed.
I would not even say "failed".  I think it is a feature, not a bug.  As Orwell said:
One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship.
Completely agree. Always beware of people demanding power in order to make life better for you.

I remember an M.P. visiting my business once and asking what Government could do to help businesses like mine thrive. My answer was, paraphrased, to “please stop doing anything new and concentrate on reducing what you already do. We know how to develop our businesses and if we don’t someone else will come along and do it better”.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by DECIMA on Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:50 am

bogbrush wrote:
Sorry, but if you want these people to stay isolated against their wishes are you going to enforce it or wave them through? And if you need to make your enforcement work aren’t you going to use guns. Like China?
They did it in Canada, and didn't have to use guns, there was no civil unrest. Not sure if you read the study, but do you have anything to refute the analysis which showed how so many lives were saved?

bogbrush wrote:
In the end you have to persuade people otherwise they’ll move. To do that you have to make it better for them.
Again I'm not sure what you mean by this, so you'll have to clarify. You said in your earlier post that you'd set up 'alternative refuges'... how would this help exactly?
One advantage we have now is free healthcare for the poorest, so medical tests could be done to differentiate between different illnesses which have similar symptoms (not always obvious to patient if they have contagious disease or not). So without that, you society could have people spreading the infectious disease without realising they have it.
And even if they do realise, I'm not yet convinced you have any strategy to stop a spread. Those very rich with lots of resources, if they act purely on self interest, will just wall themselves up; it won't stop the spread amongst majority of population.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:35 pm

Is this it? The state so we can handle epidemics?

It’s no big deal to organise charitable action. Happens all the time and doesn’t need a State, so long as you’re leaving the guns at home.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:56 pm

summerblues wrote:
Tenez wrote:Not sure whether it would work but the very purpose of it is to take the power away from those with "influence". [...] That's exactly those kind of people whom we need governing....not those with an interest.
I just think that in practice it will have to be those "with interest".  I think in every society those who desire power will manage to "bubble up to the top".  I think the best we can hope for is to put some constraints in place that will mitigate some of the worst abuses.

I think the ones who gain power are crooked both here and in Stalinist Russia, but still there is a world of difference between the two.

Random means random. The greeks made it work for over 300 years....that is a very long time. The reason those with "interest" could bubble up is only if this system is not applied.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:00 pm

bogbrush wrote:
summerblues wrote:
bogbrush wrote:And if he ever got it, to give it away. That’s the test all revolutionaries have always failed.
I would not even say "failed".  I think it is a feature, not a bug.  As Orwell said:
One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship.
Completely agree. Always beware of people demanding power in order to make life better for you.
...and again this is why a random election would put people with minimum initiative and minimum rights.

The random election means you have a random government and random president/PM. All knowing they have only one chance to shine before becoming what they were, like the rest of us. This completely change the approach that we have.

Regarding dictorship, it is already everywhere. I do not a single nation who is not under any form of dictatorship.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by summerblues on Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:01 pm

Tenez wrote:The random election means you have a random government and random president/PM. All knowing they have only one chance to shine before becoming what they were, like the rest of us. This completely change the approach that we have.
But the world does not exist in vacuum.  This has no hope of working in real life with real people. The people who normally try to gain power would try to find ways to influence the world regardless - bribe those that are selected or just push them aside.  And if you wanted to prevent that, you would have to do it using force and would wind up with a dictatorship.

Tenez wrote:Regarding dictorship, it is already everywhere. I do not a single nation who is not under any form of dictatorship.
Well, it depends on what you mean by dictatorship. Obviously, even in democracies, ordinary people do not have that much power.  But in terms of day-to-day freedom in ordinary life there is a huge difference between various systems.  A country like UK has far more freedom than the communist system in which I was growing up.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:35 pm

summerblues wrote:
Tenez wrote:The random election means you have a random government and random president/PM. All knowing they have only one chance to shine before becoming what they were, like the rest of us. This completely change the approach that we have.
But the world does not exist in vacuum.  This has no hope of working in real life with real people. The people who normally try to gain power would try to find ways to influence the world regardless - bribe those that are selected or just push them aside.  And if you wanted to prevent that, you would have to do it using force and would wind up with a dictatorship.
It did work! It is down to people willing to finally take control of their destiny. Amazingly the Greeks succeeded. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy : "ruling and being ruled in turn"

Well, it depends on what you mean by dictatorship. Obviously, even in democracies, ordinary people do not have that much power.  But in terms of day-to-day freedom in ordinary life there is a huge difference between various systems.  A country like UK has far more freedom than the communist system in which I was growing up.
Quite arguable. I see the US, the country where you now live as a worse dictatorship than the Romans. Whereas the UK is doing ok, everybody knows here that the Sun chooses who gets elected here. The more sophisticated the system , the more sophisticated the dictatorship. Now the situation is much worse than 3 decades ago. Nowadays the dictatorship is even set in people's mind. They all think alike.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by summerblues on Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:15 pm

Tenez wrote:It did work! It is down to people willing to finally take control of their destiny. Amazingly the Greeks succeeded.
I don't think so, you are being naive. Greek democracy was neither quite as democratic as you are imagining it nor did it work as well as you seem to think. Like in any other system, that had political intrigue, lies, power grabs, etc etc.

Regarding communism vs UK. It is not even close. It is your wishful thinking if you think otherwise. You do not like the current Western system so you convince yourself that other systems were no worse.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:52 am

The system of government isn't the issue, the key is whether there exists a framework of law that everyone sits equally under. Not legislation, law. These are two things; the former is put together by rulers, the latter exists outside their influence and is based on precedent and equity.

I think England had the best approximation of this. The last guy who decided it didn't apply to him lost his head over it, though I'm afraid the plethora and primacy of legislative activity and now the imposition of EU rules has diminished it. This and this alone (for me) is why we have to leave the EU.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by DECIMA on Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:52 pm

bogbrush wrote:Is this it? The state so we can handle epidemics?

It’s no big deal to organise charitable action. Happens all the time and doesn’t need a State, so long as you’re leaving the guns at home.
Well that's not 'it', but yes epidemics is one of the many reasons why in practice a state is needed to protect the people. 

Charities are good to an extent, but their funding would rise during the time of the epidemics. It takes time to build up the infrastructure, if we have charitable action after something is already spreading, by the time we have the right protections in place, millions would have unnecessarily died. 
I'm not sure if you read the report I linked on Canada, on how state action in healthcare saved so many lives during the SARS spread there in 2003. No guns were needed, and ideas like quarantines can't be imposed by charitable organisations.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:54 am

You lost me at “imposed”.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Daniel on Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:25 pm

Gee, what a great argument, BB. Clearly not arrogance and inflated ego on your part.  Laugh

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:15 am

Hey, I think the principle of imposition of the State's will on individuals is about as tremendous an argument as can exist. 

I know I can appear arrogant and egotistical sometimes but I'm not; it's just that with so many concepts that are obvious to me but immensely difficult for you it takes enormous care not to give that impression.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by DECIMA on Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:04 pm

bogbrush wrote:Hey, I think the principle of imposition of the State's will on individuals is about as tremendous an argument as can exist. 

I know I can appear arrogant and egotistical sometimes but I'm not; it's just that with so many concepts that are obvious to me but immensely difficult for you it takes enormous care not to give that impression.
Legendkiller this is a good opportunity for you- you can intervene by saying how Bogbrush is right that he can grasp concepts that are immensely difficult to others, and also say Bogbrush was right to say he isn't arrogant or egotistical.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:46 pm

Lol. BB humility and altruism even defy darwins competition laws.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:50 pm

I thought I was quite gentle there.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by DECIMA on Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:11 pm

Alright Bogbrush, I'l give you another chance to showcase your humility and intellect at the same time:

There have been many times in this debate where you've seriously struggled to defend the pragmatic aspect of a society without any laws that oblige people to do things. For example having taxes to make vaccines for smallpox free for the poorest etc.
When you have no defence left on the practical element, you just seamlessly shift to repeating your principle. It's quite a simple point, that any law which mean the state obliges people is an impediment on freedom. I agree with that, but repeating it ad infinitum when I'm explaining how some impediments are beneficial is not a strong rebuttal.

When really pressed on this, you say your arguments are actually ultimately based on pragmatism as any state with power to make laws like taxes would eventually turn into a completely tyranny like Mao and Stalin.
This I think is wrong on two levels. Firstly it's not necessary that a society with laws like free education and healthcare for the poor vie taxes, decided through democratic means will turn into something malicious. It's possible but not provably a necessity.
But secondly, it's also very naive to think that your vision of society won't also turn into something tyrannical. You said that military and defence spending would be funded by 'voluntary contributions'. Think of how this could be abused by a rich group of individuals to abuse power and gain control. Perhaps the top 20% wealthiest could 'voluntarily contribute' towards their own militia.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by DECIMA on Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:47 pm

That point above from me was an analysis into how you skilfully dodge questions by switching between short term practical aspect, to repeating your already well established principle and then making unprovable claims about the long term.

I've been quite kind in the debate so far in only raising a few points at a time to give you the best possible chance. Perhaps I'll just upload many at once.
I believe in a state where are the laws are controlled by democratic means, with the ability to oblige people. Without this how would you:

a) Protect borders from people crossing (what if millions voluntarily contributed towards a border and one rich man bought a bulldozer to take it down?)
b) Have a military which works in the interest of the public and not a few donors
c) Protect borders from hostile nations attacking
d) Ensure children of the poorest parents get an education (think social mobility)
e) Ensure the poorest can get healthcare (compassion, empathy?)
f) Make vaccines free for those who can't afford to, to stop an epidemic of smallpox or equivalent deadly contagion
g) Take into account, and limit, transactions can negatively affect a third party in a non quantifiable way (for example 2 people do a deal which is mutually beneficial but creates air pollution which contributes to the early death of asthma sufferers in a city)
h) Stop collusion between big firms creating a monopoly to extort consumers

I'm sure you could make a limp effort at trying to defend some of them, but then do your usual trick of talking about principle when it gets too tough.
But that ultimately is in an indicator of your actual defence, that you know that some of these points raised can't be addressed without a state, but atleast that's better than the state taking away your freedom, right?  

What you don't understand that there's many ways your freedom can be taken away. In the same way my ideal society, one where laws which can oblige people are decided only through democratic ways, could be abused to turn into a tyranny- your ideal society could also turn into a tyranny.
You are too naive to understand how power works. People will look to consolidate and abuse it regardless of a state. If there's a democracy the powerful will make political donations to influence policy more than the will of the people. If there's no military answerable to a democratic state, then the powerful will form militias and borders of their own choosing, and abuse that. The lack of freedom taken away by the state would be substituted by the lack of freedom taken away by fellow humans.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:25 pm

a) why would the rich guy do that. Didn’t he need the border?
b) I’m trying to think why you reckon state military is doing the bidding of anyone other than those in charge
c) if the people wanted protecting enough they’d do it.
d) social mobility has nothing to do with state education. It is now at its lowest since WWII and we have had comprehensive state education for almost 50 years
e) sounds like it’s in the interests of everyone to have herd immunity
f) see above
g) common law prevents such actions and doesn’t need a state
h) you actually think the State is a block on Corporatism? It’s quite the opposite. Who enforces patents, for example? All barriers to market entry are based on legislation. Big Corprate LOVES Big State. Look at how they cheer the EU.

You forget that all the really good stuff, like education, healthcare, etc. weren’t started by the State.

———

However, these are not all that important. You disparage dealing in principles but you overlook that deriving correct principles actually are only important decisions. Arguing over details is pointless if you’re set on the wrong road.

It’s like this in business. I concentrate on having the right strategy, then having the right implementation. All else is detail, and though I do plenty of that I never forget that a poor strategy expertly implemented is catastrophic, whereas an imperfectly implemented correct strategy is fine. What I see is that by doing the right thing results just follow - which is why for, example, in a business with >£10m in annual fixed costs I carry out no budget meetings or monthly results reviews at all, ever. If I have the right strategy and people then results are an output of that so glance at the results by all means but don’t ever react to them, I focus on refining the strategy and looking at implementation even if results are outstanding. I actually know why I can double sales while reducing fixed costs and it’s not going to require any budget cutting or spending controls.

Sounds easy? Well I can tell you that the great majority of business leaders don’t work that way, they flap around responding to results. Same as most politicians. And i can promise you that this is how to do business.

And this is why I say the principle of non-imposition by a State trumps everything.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by DECIMA on Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:29 am

a) Rich guy might want be a leftie and want unlimited immigration, or cheaper workers (personal reason). Or could just be a psychopath. Either way, if border security is being done by voluntary contributions, how do you stop the implementation being a battle between some very wealthy people building or knocking down borders?

b) I'm talking about militias here. If military and defence was done by voluntary contributions, how could you stop the richest people forming militias?, with no one to answer to they could abuse it to their own end. All your dreams about freedom would evaporate.

c) merge with point b

d) In the past, where most jobs didn't require education, perhaps they weren't linked. But these days, if children of poorer parents can't afford primary education, it would certainly hurt social mobility. And mean an underclass of people without basic literacy and numeracy.  

e) This point was on healthcare. Herd immunity only applies to a few areas in healthcare, a small minority. Most healthcare problems aren't contagious, so not related to herd immunity

f) On the issue of deadly contagious diseases, I can refer back to my argument on how some villagers panic when their village is affected, and start fleeing elsewhere, natural human reaction. But it spreads the disease and means millions die. I've given evidence on how countries like Canada dealt with this, how would you?

g) Let's say a mutually beneficial deal is made between two people which pollutes a river. This contributes to water pollution, and eventually the pollution accumulates to the point where fish are harmed, and then in future has a negative effect on the overall ecosystem including humans. How would common law deal with this, and how would it be enforced?

h) I'm not saying current system is perfect on this. But ultimately a state can break up a monopoly. What happens if a billionaire bought all the airports, railways, airlines, and train companies that operate in the UK. He could increase the price two fold and completely rip off consumers who wanted to travel in the UK without a car.

As for your anecdote, I appreciate your extensive experience in business, but the issue with the implementation of your principle is more than just details; it would be land controlled by militias owned by rich people, with the poorest dying off relying on charity for education or healthcare. You haven't thought this through, your absolute certainty is an indicator of faith.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:35 pm

a) Yeah, because people with a vested interest in a location love to destroy it

b) You do know that a rich person can have one right now don't you?

d) Bollocks. You obviously know very little of what drives social mobility.

e) Shit happens. Less shit happens when barriers to trade are down.

f) I refer you back to my previous answer.

g) Everyone else who stands to suffer sues them.

h) The State is the ultimate monopoly. It loves Corporatism. In a free market your billionaire just f*cked up big time because other people open up alternative routes and he goes broke. You're locked into a corporatist World, think outside it.

Nope, details are details. You don't make people freer and happier by coercing them. You just don't. You just elevate knobheads into finding more and more ways to rule them.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by DECIMA on Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:59 pm

bogbrush wrote:a) Yeah, because people with a vested interest in a location love to destroy it
Well many rich people in the UK probably do want unlimited immigration. Whether you think that's destructive is completely irrelevant, I'm asking how your society's border which is reliant on 'voluntary contributions' would not just become a battle between some rich people who either want or don't want a strong border.

b) You do know that a rich person can have one right now don't you?
Right, but if a rich person in the UK had a militia behind them, it would be taken down by the British Army.

d) Bollocks. You obviously know very little of what drives social mobility.
That's not a very good rebuttal.
I do know that if children of poor parents don't have free access to primary and secondary education, it would seriously hurt social mobility.

e) Shit happens. Less shit happens when barriers to trade are down.
I'm saying that your society would have the poor dying and reliant on charity if they get any disease, and your answer is 'shit happens'? Another very weak response.

f) I refer you back to my previous answer.
You've not even attempted to explain how you would deal with villagers panicking and spreading the disease by fleeing if a village is affected by a contagious disease. You said someone could set up an 'alternative refuge' which didn't make any sense, I asked you to clarify and since then you've avoided the question.

g) Everyone else who stands to suffer sues them.
How would that work? Thousands of people have done business transactions which have a side effect of polluting the air. It increases the rates of people dying due to asthma by around 33%, but it's impossible to attribute each individual case/death to air pollution. Who exactly would the sufferer sue? All drivers of petrol cars? Random businesses?

h) The State is the ultimate monopoly. It loves Corporatism. In a free market your billionaire just f*cked up big time because other people open up alternative routes and he goes broke. You're locked into a corporatist World, think outside it.
How long would it take to build another railway, or another airport, and planes? In the meantime the billionaire can charge extortionate prices, gain huge profit, and then sell off when the alternatives get built. And then the same thing could happen 5 years later, another billionaire buys the whole (this time expanded) lot again. Another cycle of huge profit for him, consumers ripped off.

Nope, details are details. You don't make people freer and happier by coercing them. You just don't. You just elevate knobheads into finding more and more ways to rule them.
As I said earlier, you're being naive if you think your vision of society isn't at risk of leading to powerful people gaining control and then taking away people's freedoms for their own gain.
Atleast in my system the laws like taxes which 'impede freedom' are decided democratically and practically help the population in ways I've described.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:13 pm

Honestly Amrit, you haven’t a clue what I’m talking about and you cite examples of awful fates under a free market seemingly oblivious to how abysmally the State has managed the very same things. 

You do not understand what drives social mobility (it’s free access to markets by the way).

I’ve explained stuff repeatedly and you’re back to the same state you were in when all the other posters were telling you you’d lost it.

I’ll just ask you one questions since you seem in such terror of private ownership of railways: what period saw the greatest and lowest investment in railways? Clue, nationalisation happened in 1948 and re-privatisation In 1994.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by DECIMA on Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:55 pm

bogbrush wrote:
I’ll just ask you one questions since you seem in such terror of private ownership of railways: what period saw the greatest and lowest investment in railways? Clue, nationalisation happened in 1948 and re-privatisation In 1994.
I don't support renationalisation of the railways, so not sure why you'd think I'm in terror. We can have private ownership along with monopoly laws.

bogbrush wrote:You do not understand what drives social mobility (it’s free access to markets by the way).
There are many things which help social mobility, and private industry certainly has a role.
My argument was that if you don't have free education for the children of poor parents, that will have a negative effect on social mobility. You haven't tried to make any arguments against that.

bogbrush wrote:I’ve explained stuff repeatedly and you’re back to the same state
No, I don't think so. I think you saw the points I just made, realised that you don't really have a good answer to any of them, so you've decided to play the man and not the ball. Forget who is making the points, address my arguments.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:35 am

This is the kind of nonsense that’s only made possible by the State. It wouldn’t be possible without it, the recipients would be liable for all the bad debts and obligations.

————————

WHOLESALER Palmer & Harvey has paid out more than £70m in dividends since 2009, despite racking up more than £48m in debt, culminating in its collapse into administration this week.


According to Companies House, P&H was paying more than £8m a year in cash to holders of its A and B preference shares, through dividends and redemptions.
These holders largely comprised former directors, with a large chunk held by Christopher Adams, P&H’s former chairman.
The cash was paid out regardless of whether P&H posted an annual loss, which it did each year apart from 2014. In its most recent financial year, it made a loss of £9.4m. The news is likely to spark a backlash from the 2,500 employees who lost their jobs on Tuesday. A further 900 jobs are still at risk.
Administrator PwC did not reply to a request for comment last night. It had previously said P&H was hit by “challenging trading conditions and efforts to restructure the business have been unsuccessful”.

——————-

And you think the State acts to protect against Corporatists!

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:37 am

DECIMA wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
I’ll just ask you one questions since you seem in such terror of private ownership of railways: what period saw the greatest and lowest investment in railways? Clue, nationalisation happened in 1948 and re-privatisation In 1994.
I don't support renationalisation of the railways, so not sure why you'd think I'm in terror. We can have private ownership along with monopoly laws.

bogbrush wrote:You do not understand what drives social mobility (it’s free access to markets by the way).
There are many things which help social mobility, and private industry certainly has a role.
My argument was that if you don't have free education for the children of poor parents, that will have a negative effect on social mobility. You haven't tried to make any arguments against that.

bogbrush wrote:I’ve explained stuff repeatedly and you’re back to the same state
No, I don't think so. I think you saw the points I just made, realised that you don't really have a good answer to any of them, so you've decided to play the man and not the ball. Forget who is making the points, address my arguments.
Nope, not private industry. Free access to markets. Different thing.

Your points are almost all faulty because they take the current situation and imagine removing some tge tge actions of tge State. You don’t imagine the situation that would prevail if it just wasn’t there. It changes everything, including the need for responsibility.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by DECIMA on Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:59 am

I'm not convinced, I think you had a look at the questions I asked, realised that you didn't really have an answer for them under your model; and now have very cleverly and effectively found ways of completely avoiding answers.
If you believe people's actions would change in your state, that's fine, but that could easily form part of an answer.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by summerblues on Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:01 pm

BB, are you suggesting there should be literally no state or do you just want it to play a generally very small role?

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:37 pm

summerblues wrote:BB, are you suggesting there should be literally no state or do you just want it to play a generally very small role?
The ideal condition is Stateless. I recognise this is as difficult a concept to many as those of no God or soul because we are brought up to see this as the default. Amrit is literally incredulous that humans could organise to tackle problems without an external authority pointing guns at them, and he’s certainly not alone.

I myself find it challenging but I have yet to find a problem that wouldn’t, ultimately, be better handled by freedom. The biggest difference is that it requires people to act with responsibility and accountability but this is no different to the situation a little child faces in growing up to live independently.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by DECIMA on Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:50 pm

bogbrush wrote:
The ideal condition is Stateless. I recognise this is as difficult a concept to many as those of no God or soul because we are brought up to see this as the default. Amrit is literally incredulous that humans could organise to tackle problems without an external authority pointing guns at them, and he’s certainly not alone.
People arguing for religion do so on faith. I'm making my critique of your idea based on critical thinking and logic, and giving you the chance to rebut any of my points on the same grounds. Not a fair or reasonable comparison from you.

bogbrush wrote:
I myself find it challenging but I have yet to find a problem that wouldn’t, ultimately, be better handled by freedom.
Well you're in luck, because I've found a few. 6 by my count that I've brought up yesterday and still hasn't been replied. Why not address them specifically, and in doing so you can talk about how certain human behaviours would need to change if you wish.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:05 pm

You really haven’t, because everything is framed in terms of the current model. 

I’ve told you that the only ethical position is non-coercion, and that all difficulties are resolvable through basic common law and enlightened self interest. You don’t like them because the solution doesn’t match what you think the State achieves (it doesn’t achieve them, of course, stuff like people dying of illness, bad education, social immobility are bloody awful under your State model.)

Human behaviour doesn’t need to change, you just need responsibility.

Any views on the Palmer & Harvey situation? You recognise why that wouldn’t happen without the State don’t you? And do you recognise how this connects to the Worldwide farce-crime of Central Banking, fiat currency and how the concept of State sits behind it all.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by DECIMA on Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:11 pm

bogbrush wrote:You really haven’t, because everything is framed in terms of the current model. 
That's not true, I've asked how specific issues would be dealt with. For each point you can frame your model exactly how you want.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by summerblues on Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:59 pm

bogbrush wrote:The ideal condition is Stateless. I recognise this is as difficult a concept [...] because we are brought up to see this as the default.
I don't see it as being just because we "were brought up that way".  I just don't think it would work - unless I am grossly misunderstanding what you mean by "stateless".

People are selfish, power hungry by nature.  What to do about those who set about stealing, killing, controlling others etc?  You yourself seem to presume existence of laws (you talk about people being able to "sue" or "be sued" in your imagined world).  But what is the framework to enforce them?  Do people just get together to set up self-help voluntary defence societies?  And if they do, how does it not ultimately collapse to militias enforcing their view on everyone else, and, in a long run, into a state yet again?

I am quite sympathetic to the general view along the lines of "the less state the better" but I feel pretty certain that a stateless utopia just cannot exist in practice - not with real people.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:33 pm

The way I see it is that the nature of people is formed by their environment, but we have immense potential for either way.

If you treat people like imbeciles, expecting them to laze around awaiting support then guess what they’ll do? If every failure is excused in terms of disadvantage and relieved by sequestration assets of those who did then why should they strive?  If you facilitate a stitched up commercial environment where it’s illegal to offer services to other people without State licences why should they dare?
But if you cultivate an environment of self-reliance then people will tend to accumulate, cooperate, work, learn and so on.

So all Amrits scenarios are based on today’s situation, where of “course” without a State to provide you with education you can’t change your life prospects. Utter garbage of course, but that’s the mode of thinking you have.

That’s why I’m baffled at the premise of questions like how you prevent epidemics spreading - it’s really obvious that rational people would go out of their way to help afflicted people so they don’t move next door. Only in the State environment do we imagine we’d all sit around behaving like cattle while the almighty State moves in with its guns to herd people around.

As for law, I refer to the rules we all know exist and don’t need a State. Don’t harm, keep your word, respect property, enforced by the most powerful of sanctions - enforced disengagement from the rest of the people. Or do people on here believe they only refrain from these acts because of an Act of Parliament?

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