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This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:02 pm

I have been mute on this thread for a while cause I was busy going to a conference. I'll come back to you soon.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/41973119/why-do-people-still-think-the-earth-is-flat

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:27 pm

Exactly!

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by DECIMA on Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:35 pm

Bogbrush I'm afraid new evidence has come in very recently, and I've had to conclude that NITB is right and you are wrong.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:11 pm

I think it is important to remind some of you that it was exactly that attitude people had towards Galileo, cause of course the world was flat back then...for the "rational, intelligent thinkers".

A real scientist always keeps an open mind. Holding for absolute truth the 1% we now today while dismissing as "waffle" the 99% we don;t know and which could turn our vision of the world completely upside down (literally), is anything but scientific.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:40 pm

Yes, it’s so clear to me now. Galileo was the one using scientific thought to challenge mythology and irrationality, and clearly the people believing in unsubstantiated concepts like spirits and supernatural beings are his heirs in opposing concepts like physics and evolution.

How could I have got it so wrong?


Last edited by bogbrush on Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:05 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:40 pm

DECIMA wrote:Bogbrush I'm afraid new evidence has come in very recently, and I've had to conclude that NITB is right and you are wrong.
What was that, the Popes farted or something?

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by DECIMA on Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:51 pm

bogbrush wrote:
DECIMA wrote:Bogbrush I'm afraid new evidence has come in very recently, and I've had to conclude that NITB is right and you are wrong.
What was that, the Popes farted or something?
I've got tickets for today evening at WTF. After being derisory of NITB's literalist Bible viewpoint the Christian God has punished me by sending Thiem vs Busta.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:02 pm

DECIMA wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
DECIMA wrote:Bogbrush I'm afraid new evidence has come in very recently, and I've had to conclude that NITB is right and you are wrong.
What was that, the Popes farted or something?
I've got tickets for today evening at WTF. After being derisory of NITB's literalist Bible viewpoint the Christian God has punished me by sending Thiem vs Busta.
And there’s people still doubt it! 

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:08 pm

bogbrush wrote:Yes, it’s so clear to me now. Galileo was the one using scientific thought to challenge mythology and irrationality, and clearly the people believing in unsubstantiated concepts like spirits and supernatural beings are his heirs in opposing faith based concepts like physics and evolution.

How could I have got it so wrong?

But then again what you do not seem to get is that had Galileo not believed in unsubstantiated concepts at first, he would not even have tried to prove the world was round.

He first thought outside the box and then proved his view.

From what I read so far on this subject, you would be the last to think outside the box.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:24 pm

That must be why I hold completely conventional ideas like tgere is no such thing as consciousness or life that you hear every day. Yes, very orthodox.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:44 pm

bogbrush wrote:That must be why I hold completely conventional ideas like tgere is no such thing as consciousness or life that you hear every day. Yes, very orthodox.

What you call "ideas" are actually kind of religious beliefs based on what science hold so far as reliable theories. Science is still looking at the world in an open mind. Your reasoning, at least of what I understand, is to stick to 2+2, while blocking anything unproven yet, very much like Galileo's ennemies.

This is why you cannot comprehend, for example reports, from the NHS saying the state of mind affects cancer, cause of course matter has no mood.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by summerblues on Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:24 am

barrystar wrote:Thanks for this answer - we obviously disagree, I'm not sure whether an element of it is down to terminology, or it is really as fundamental as it appears.
I expect it will be both.  I think we likely have terminology misunderstanding, but based on some of the stuff you have written I suspect that even after we clear that up, we will still disagree in substance.

barrystar wrote:Forgive me if I ask some questions - but could you describe how one gets to 'anything goes', also, can you give an example of a dogmatic rule which work because it is dogmatic, and a non-dogmatic rule which either has been tried and failed?
I am not saying that "non-dogmatic rules fail".  I am saying that "there are no non-dogmatic rules".  So, if anything, I could turn the question around and ask "can you give me an example of a non-dogmatic rule"?  My claim would be that you cannot, because there are no such rules.

Every rule will ultimately have to rely on personal preferences that cannot be further justified, which then have to be accepted "as is" - which is what I would call "dogmatically".

How would you justify, for example, that slavery is wrong?  One can observe that it harms people, that it perhaps invariably also harms economic development of the society etc etc.  But none of that directly leads to "slavery is wrong" unless one accepts "harming people is wrong", or that "harming the economic development is wrong", etc etc.  That is, one has to accept some dogmata, and then can use reason and observation from there.

Regarding "anything goes":  Since I am saying that every non-trivial rule is dogmatic, one gets to "anything goes" by default - all other possible rules are thrown out because they fail to be non-dogmatic.

TBH, I do not think I am really saying all that much here.  I would think this part is the part where we are likely just using different "terminology", and substantive differences between us lie elsewhere.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:07 pm

Tenez wrote:
bogbrush wrote:That must be why I hold completely conventional ideas like tgere is no such thing as consciousness or life that you hear every day. Yes, very orthodox.

What you call "ideas" are actually kind of religious beliefs based on what science hold so far as reliable theories. Science is still looking at the world in an open mind. Your reasoning, at least of what I understand, is to stick to 2+2, while blocking anything unproven yet, very much like Galileo's ennemies.

This is why you cannot comprehend, for example reports, from the NHS saying the state of mind affects cancer, cause of course matter has no mood.
Nonsense; of course the state of the mind can affect things because the thing we call the mind is a manifestation of the brain structure and is part of the whole entity. This is pretty much what I've been saying for about 10 pages now.

It is not, as you lot seem to think, some metaphysical separate entity that operates on the body, it is a function of cells of the body and as such it would be baffling if it had no effect on the functioning of other parts. There is no metaphysics, there is just atoms and the blind process of evolution.

I tell you what, for such conventional ideas all this seems to take you guys by such surprise you really mustn't be paying attention.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:47 pm

bogbrush wrote:
Tenez wrote:
bogbrush wrote:That must be why I hold completely conventional ideas like tgere is no such thing as consciousness or life that you hear every day. Yes, very orthodox.

What you call "ideas" are actually kind of religious beliefs based on what science hold so far as reliable theories. Science is still looking at the world in an open mind. Your reasoning, at least of what I understand, is to stick to 2+2, while blocking anything unproven yet, very much like Galileo's ennemies.

This is why you cannot comprehend, for example reports, from the NHS saying the state of mind affects cancer, cause of course matter has no mood.
Nonsense; of course the state of the mind can affect things because the thing we call the mind is a manifestation of the brain structure and is part of the whole entity. This is pretty much what I've been saying for about 10 pages now.

It is not, as you lot seem to think, some metaphysical separate entity that operates on the body, it is a function of cells of the body and as such it would be baffling if it had no effect on the functioning of other parts. There is no metaphysics, there is just atoms and the blind process of evolution.

I tell you what, for such conventional ideas all this seems to take you guys by such surprise you really mustn't be paying attention.

I like the way you say "of course"! Cause before Jan 2017, you could have laughed at me and say waffle waffle waffle....cause there was no proof of it actually. And in fact there are still no proof, it's just a statistical observation.....we certainly cannot identify it in the "brain structure" at this stage. Energy, concepts and images are not metaphysical....just that they are not in a state of solid "dead" matter even if they might be generated from matter, they seem to affect matter in turn.

So now you agree the mind affects "things"....I 'd like you to revisit your famous question: "Do you know if parents can influence the genetics of their children?"

My answer is still an honest "I don;t know"!

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:37 pm

Tenez wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Tenez wrote:
bogbrush wrote:That must be why I hold completely conventional ideas like tgere is no such thing as consciousness or life that you hear every day. Yes, very orthodox.

What you call "ideas" are actually kind of religious beliefs based on what science hold so far as reliable theories. Science is still looking at the world in an open mind. Your reasoning, at least of what I understand, is to stick to 2+2, while blocking anything unproven yet, very much like Galileo's ennemies.

This is why you cannot comprehend, for example reports, from the NHS saying the state of mind affects cancer, cause of course matter has no mood.
Nonsense; of course the state of the mind can affect things because the thing we call the mind is a manifestation of the brain structure and is part of the whole entity. This is pretty much what I've been saying for about 10 pages now.

It is not, as you lot seem to think, some metaphysical separate entity that operates on the body, it is a function of cells of the body and as such it would be baffling if it had no effect on the functioning of other parts. There is no metaphysics, there is just atoms and the blind process of evolution.

I tell you what, for such conventional ideas all this seems to take you guys by such surprise you really mustn't be paying attention.

I like the way you say "of course"! Cause before Jan 2017, you could have laughed at me and say waffle waffle waffle....cause there was no proof of it actually. And in fact there are still no proof, it's just a statistical observation.....we certainly cannot identify it in the "brain structure" at this stage. Energy, concepts and  images are not metaphysical....just that they are not in a state of solid "dead" matter even if they might be generated from matter, they seem to affect matter in turn.

So now you agree the mind affects "things"....I 'd like you to revisit your famous question: "Do you know if parents can influence the genetics of their children?"

My answer is still an honest "I don;t know"!
No, I wouldn't have, because it's been obvious to me for many years that the mind has no existence beyond the mechanism of the brain, and the brain is just an organ within the body. You might think this is new but I've thought this way for many years.

You can't locate "it" for a very good reason.... "it" doesn't exist! It's the same reason there's zero physical evidence for God, Santa, fairies or the spirit.

No, parents cannot do this. Genetics are fixed by the connection between the sperm and the egg and the correlation of which genes are dominant depends on the chance meeting to whichever sperm, and then further chance.

My answer is an honest "it's bloody obvious"

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Jahu on Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:51 pm

So much sperm going around here, I'm blushing, this forum is becoming wikipedia on its own, learn from tennis to sperm and inbetween   Big Grin

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:54 pm

You keep contradicting yourself. You talk about "state of the mind affecting things" and then say mind doesn't exist.

Also you keep throwing fairies and santa in when frankly no-one is talking about it bar you but of course in a clear intent is to discredit and avoid proper argumentation. Not the first time.

I am talking about that "very mechanism" of the brain, which can be affected by massless photons, or even tangible as well dreamt images.

How comes the mood of the mind, or brain if you prefer, can affect cancer patient survival? You know what is cancer surely? It is the uncontrolled duplication of cells. So how come your brain mood can affect this very fact?

I am glad it is bloody obvious to you....it;s not for anyone else!

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:21 pm

I use words because they have commonly understood meaning. Nothing wrong with that.

I throw in Santa and fairies because they are things that people believe in which are stupid.

The brain directs the release of all sorts of chemicals so why not have an effect? I call gambling firms drug pushers because they deal in dopamine.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Daniel on Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:51 pm

I wouldn't mind if BB was basing all of what he said on iron clad or very reliable theories but he isnt.  It's often flimsy theories or science that has a load of questions.  In fact... all of science does. Eventually, the entire model we know today will be thrown out and replaced by something that explains the universe better.  And I am to believe that BB has it all worked out with such a massive lack of knowledge about all the underlying processes we know nothing about.  Many we don't yet even know exist.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:31 pm

Oh hang on, here comes the guy who thinks red is an actual thing. I feel intellectually intimidated.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Daniel Yesterday at 3:30 pm

bogbrush wrote:Oh hang on, here comes the guy who thinks red is an actual thing. I feel intellectually intimidated.

You mean the guys (plural)?  You know, actual scientists who completely disagree with you.  Many prominent ones among them.  As I've repeated now about 20 times - this whole discussion comes under a massive branch of philosophy and science that has been debated centuries.  It isn't solved even slightly.  And you think you know it all.  You think scientists like Hoyle and Penrose and Schrodinger know less than you.  You aren't on their level or any level. The Hard Problem of Conciousness is a serious and unsolved mystery and will remain so long after you are dead.

It's also amusing that you consider Santa to be fake because you can't see him and yet with the colour red - which objectively does exist - you then do the opposite and claim it doesn't exist.  It's such a wank argument - right from the lips of Dawkins and Dennett "If I can't explain it, just say it doesn't exist".  It's not an argument.  You know what red is.  You can name it.  You experience it.  It's not explained by math or by language.

And if you really think everything is math and it's all programmed, nothing at all really worth anything, then why are you even here?  Why don't you just kill yourself?  Why do you go on?  Why do you watch tennis or care about it?  You're simply not consistent to your own beliefs. Someone who thinks that we are just drones in a meaningless universe sure does seem to take Federer winning rather seriously...
Laugh Laugh Laugh Big Grin

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush Yesterday at 6:41 pm

You don’t actually know what red is, do you? Laugh

Want me to tell you? I’d consider it a public service.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Daniel Today at 5:16 am

You didn't answer any question....

I wonder why.

It's amazing that you think you've got worked out what thousands of scientists and philosophers have not.  I'm not interested in your opinion and ego, thanks.  Doh

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush Today at 3:47 pm

You want me to answer the question “why don’t you just kill yourself?” Seriously?

You’re kind of odd.

Offers still there if you’d like some education. That’s how generous a type of guy I am.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by DECIMA Today at 5:46 pm

Bogbrush do you mind if I ask you some tough questions on another topic.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

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