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This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:18 pm

You are not one of those fools who believed that by killing their fathers, husbands and sons the GIs were liberating them, are you?

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:46 pm

What a timing... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-41408195

Rules are made to be broken.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by DECIMA on Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:56 am

Tenez wrote:What a timing... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-41408195

Rules are made to be broken.
Incredible
Here I was saying women are oppressed in theocratic societies, and now women can drive in Saudi Arabia for the first time- I look like such a fool!

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Daniel on Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:29 am

Saudi executes gays, stones women (and think about that.  "Stones women".  Don't just see words, go and look at some pictures), and consistently ranks near North Korea for its oppression.  This forum would not be legal in Saudi. You haven't got a clue, Tenez.  As per.  And why would I be reading CNN?  It's blatant leftist propaganda... but EVERY news source, dependent, independent, right, left... EVERYONE is unanimous on this.

Oh... apart from governments... Who turn a blind eye to Saudi because of all their OIL.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:48 am

And look how "advanced", "liberated" and full of "rights" women are in the west:

http://www.worldometers.info/abortions/

Murdering their own children. Obviously encouraged by their "loving" partners/husbands.

I am afraid some posters here are too brainwashed by media.
They only see one side. 
It's always "them", never "us"...

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by legendkillar on Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:08 pm

No issue with abortion. Shame more don't happen as the world wouldn't be made up with so many muppets and 'damaged' individuals with abandonment and integration issues.

Let's exhaust our resources quicker by breeding irresponsibly.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:23 pm

That s the thing. For some abortion is murder for others it s perfectly fine. Maybe 2 extreme views in our society. And this is why I find it poor judgement when not accepting that other culture live differently.

Wahabism and salafism have nothing to do with real Muslims but again strangely they are the westerners friends supported at the expense of more secular Muslim countries. Ask yourself why?

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:58 pm

Tenez wrote:That s the thing. For some abortion is murder for others it s perfectly fine. Maybe 2 extreme views in our society. And this is why I find it poor judgement when not accepting that other culture live differently.

Wahabism and salafism have nothing to do with real Muslims but again strangely they are the westerners friends supported at the expense of more secular Muslim countries. Ask yourself why?

And what is your view?

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:11 pm

I have no strong view on this. I'm in favour of it with strong moderation. A case by case basis roughly.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:42 pm

For me, abortion is murder. But that doesn't mean I'm saying it mustn't happen. I just think that if you're going to make decisions you should do it on honest bases. I detest people who have a preconceived outcome and decide to frame the debate dishonestly.

A good example on abortion is where they say "a woman has the right because it's her body". I always counter by asking if that applies to the hour before birth, and unless they are especially retarded they say of course not, and then I ask exactly where we draw the line then. 
This often leads to the idea that it's where the foetus (it's never a "baby", always a foetus) is viable on it's own, to which I always ask if this means a person in intensive care is now unprotected by law and I can go around switching them off. This also creates the weird idea that as medical science advances the definition of murder changes.
Another one is when they cite pregnancy in cases of rape. To that I like to suggest that by that they mean if I agree to abortion in cases of rape that means they'll agree to ban it in all other cases we might talk. Again, this ends the line because their premise is entirely dishonest - they're just trying to get you onto an extreme argument and undermine your position that way and the issue of rape is completely irrelevant (after all, the baby doesn't see the difference).

There are arguments for abortion but they are always based on a brutal decision, a bit like the arguments for dropping bombs on people. Like I say, I'm not expressing my position here but I am pointing out the dishonesty of most of the arguments in its favour.


Last edited by bogbrush on Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:45 pm

legendkillar wrote:No issue with abortion. Shame more don't happen as the world wouldn't be made up with so many muppets and 'damaged' individuals with abandonment and integration issues.

Let's exhaust our resources quicker by breeding irresponsibly.
Does that mean we should tour the inner cities killing off troublesome people?

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, there was a terrific piece of research by Steven Levitt and Stephen Dubner in "Freakonomics" which showed the decline in crime in US inner cities correlated not with changes in law, sentencing policy, education or anything as well as it did with Roe vs Wade + 15 years.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by legendkillar on Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:58 pm

bogbrush wrote:
legendkillar wrote:No issue with abortion. Shame more don't happen as the world wouldn't be made up with so many muppets and 'damaged' individuals with abandonment and integration issues.

Let's exhaust our resources quicker by breeding irresponsibly.
Does that mean we should tour the inner cities killing off troublesome people?

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, there was a terrific piece of research by Steven Levitt and Stephen Dubner in "Freakonomics" which showed the decline in crime in US inner cities correlated not with changes in law, sentencing policy, education or anything as well as it did with Roe vs Wade + 15 years.

Why not. We cull badgers and other perceived pests without reasonable cause or justification. I am not one of these that subscribes to the notion the life of people trump that of other species.

It's in our nature to destroy, but not preserve, even if that meant carrying out acts that bring with them a questionable morality.

There was a superb documentary showed in 2011 which then stated that the planet needed to be the size of 1 and 1/2 earth's to sustain (then) the current levels of population with equal resource. That was 6 years ago and I have no idea what that would look like now.

Human population seems to be the white elephant in the room that no-one wants to discuss, primarily because of the emotive nature of the subject. When you consider the average life expectancy is in the 70's now and in the mid 1800's it was 34!! The UK population in 2015 finally caught up to the levels prior to World War II. As brutal as it sounds, imagine what the global population would look like now without the wars in the 20th century.

We are unique as a species as we've achieved far more in advances than other species, but that has brought with it a lot complexities we struggle to overcome.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by luvsports! on Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:01 pm

bogbrush wrote:For me, abortion is murder. But that doesn't mean I'm saying it mustn't happen. I just think that if you're going to make decisions you should do it on honest bases. I detest people who have a preconceived outcome and decide to frame the debate dishonestly.

A good example on abortion is where they say "a woman has the right because it's her body". I always counter by asking if that applies to the hour before birth, and unless they are especially retarded they say of course not, and then I ask exactly where we draw the line then. 
This often leads to the idea that it's where the foetus (it's never a "baby", always a foetus) is viable on it's own, to which I always ask if this means a person in intensive care is now unprotected by law and I can go around switching them off. This also creates the weird idea that as medical science advances the definition of murder changes.
Another one is when they cite pregnancy in cases of rape. To that I like to suggest that by that they mean if I agree to abortion in cases of rape that means they'll agree to ban it in all other cases we might talk. Again, this ends the line because their premise is entirely dishonest - they're just trying to get you onto an extreme argument and undermine your position that way and the issue of rape is completely irrelevant (after all, the baby doesn't see the difference).

There are arguments for abortion but they are always based on a brutal decision, a bit like the arguments for dropping bombs on people. Like I say, I'm not expressing my position here but I am pointing out the dishonesty of most of the arguments in its favour.

My views on abortion are changing a fair bit.
Before it was around 20 weeks, then 15, now 12. I am still pro choice but learning about how it is done is gruesome.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:20 pm

Indeed, it's a disgusting procedure. 

Isn't it weird how you'd not need to look hard to find someone who'd object to that statement? I think they must be the same types who manned the concentration camps or Stalins efforts, the type who can easily subordinate normal human decency to a cause and convince themselves they're doing a good thing.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Daniel on Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:59 pm

luvsports! wrote:
bogbrush wrote:For me, abortion is murder. But that doesn't mean I'm saying it mustn't happen. I just think that if you're going to make decisions you should do it on honest bases. I detest people who have a preconceived outcome and decide to frame the debate dishonestly.

A good example on abortion is where they say "a woman has the right because it's her body". I always counter by asking if that applies to the hour before birth, and unless they are especially retarded they say of course not, and then I ask exactly where we draw the line then. 
This often leads to the idea that it's where the foetus (it's never a "baby", always a foetus) is viable on it's own, to which I always ask if this means a person in intensive care is now unprotected by law and I can go around switching them off. This also creates the weird idea that as medical science advances the definition of murder changes.
Another one is when they cite pregnancy in cases of rape. To that I like to suggest that by that they mean if I agree to abortion in cases of rape that means they'll agree to ban it in all other cases we might talk. Again, this ends the line because their premise is entirely dishonest - they're just trying to get you onto an extreme argument and undermine your position that way and the issue of rape is completely irrelevant (after all, the baby doesn't see the difference).

There are arguments for abortion but they are always based on a brutal decision, a bit like the arguments for dropping bombs on people. Like I say, I'm not expressing my position here but I am pointing out the dishonesty of most of the arguments in its favour.

My views on abortion are changing a fair bit.
Before it was around 20 weeks, then 15, now 12. I am still pro choice but learning about how it is done is gruesome.


You're getting older and wiser.  And yet you whinge when I say the voting age should be raised.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:15 pm

bogbrush wrote:For me, abortion is murder. But that doesn't mean I'm saying it mustn't happen. I just think that if you're going to make decisions you should do it on honest bases. I detest people who have a preconceived outcome and decide to frame the debate dishonestly.

A good example on abortion is where they say "a woman has the right because it's her body". I always counter by asking if that applies to the hour before birth, and unless they are especially retarded they say of course not, and then I ask exactly where we draw the line then. 
This often leads to the idea that it's where the foetus (it's never a "baby", always a foetus) is viable on it's own, to which I always ask if this means a person in intensive care is now unprotected by law and I can go around switching them off. This also creates the weird idea that as medical science advances the definition of murder changes.
Another one is when they cite pregnancy in cases of rape. To that I like to suggest that by that they mean if I agree to abortion in cases of rape that means they'll agree to ban it in all other cases we might talk. Again, this ends the line because their premise is entirely dishonest - they're just trying to get you onto an extreme argument and undermine your position that way and the issue of rape is completely irrelevant (after all, the baby doesn't see the difference).

There are arguments for abortion but they are always based on a brutal decision, a bit like the arguments for dropping bombs on people. Like I say, I'm not expressing my position here but I am pointing out the dishonesty of most of the arguments in its favour.

Abortion is murder but murder of an unconscious soul. It is bad killing it but I have more problems with our politicians killing real children. In other words how can one be against abortion and yet re-elect guys like Bush or Blair? Unless you agree our politicians are doing their best to keep our countries afloat and that implies starting wars and control chaos around the world. Therefore killing is a necessary evil and abortion is a lesser moral issue to me.


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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:18 pm

Daniel wrote:You're getting older and wiser.  And yet you whinge when I say the voting age should be raised.

Thouh I agree that youngsters can easily be manipulated, it is also obvious that crowds at large are also very easily manipulated. I have around me very smart people who I can see think exactly like the media and "la pensee unique" (the unique way of thinking) tell them to think.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by luvsports! on Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:35 pm

Daniel wrote:
luvsports! wrote:
bogbrush wrote:For me, abortion is murder. But that doesn't mean I'm saying it mustn't happen. I just think that if you're going to make decisions you should do it on honest bases. I detest people who have a preconceived outcome and decide to frame the debate dishonestly.

A good example on abortion is where they say "a woman has the right because it's her body". I always counter by asking if that applies to the hour before birth, and unless they are especially retarded they say of course not, and then I ask exactly where we draw the line then. 
This often leads to the idea that it's where the foetus (it's never a "baby", always a foetus) is viable on it's own, to which I always ask if this means a person in intensive care is now unprotected by law and I can go around switching them off. This also creates the weird idea that as medical science advances the definition of murder changes.
Another one is when they cite pregnancy in cases of rape. To that I like to suggest that by that they mean if I agree to abortion in cases of rape that means they'll agree to ban it in all other cases we might talk. Again, this ends the line because their premise is entirely dishonest - they're just trying to get you onto an extreme argument and undermine your position that way and the issue of rape is completely irrelevant (after all, the baby doesn't see the difference).

There are arguments for abortion but they are always based on a brutal decision, a bit like the arguments for dropping bombs on people. Like I say, I'm not expressing my position here but I am pointing out the dishonesty of most of the arguments in its favour.

My views on abortion are changing a fair bit.
Before it was around 20 weeks, then 15, now 12. I am still pro choice but learning about how it is done is gruesome.


You're getting older and wiser.  And yet you whinge when I say the voting age should be raised.

Ta. That is a separate issue, one that you didn't respond to when i rebutted you.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:40 am

Tenez wrote:
Daniel wrote:You're getting older and wiser.  And yet you whinge when I say the voting age should be raised.

Thouh I agree that youngsters can easily be manipulated, it is also obvious that crowds at large are also very easily manipulated. I have around me very smart people who I can see think exactly like the media and "la pensee unique" (the unique way of thinking)  tell them to think.
It has always been like that, but now more than ever there is the need to challenge the served "truth" and use one's own head to think things through.

I don't know whether we are born like that, but I have been always questioning everything since I've known myself.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:44 am

Tenez wrote:
Abortion is murder but murder of an unconscious soul. It is bad killing it but I have more problems with our politicians killing real children. In other words how can one be against abortion and yet re-elect guys like Bush or Blair? Unless you agree our politicians are doing their best to keep our countries afloat and that implies starting wars and control chaos around the world. Therefore killing is a necessary evil and abortion is a lesser moral issue to me.

still, they are souls.
Like a bud is an unopened flower.

There is no way around it.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:22 am

Nature is full of seeds which will never germinates. Life moves on.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:10 am

You cannot liken a child in a mother's womb, (even one day old) to a seed of grass.
People are made in God's image with a moral code in their heart.

That's sepsrates us from all other creation and that is why it's subjected to us.

We all came from dust and there we shall return but the soul goes upwards back to God when we die,

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:20 am

noleisthebest wrote:You cannot liken a child in a mother's womb, (even one day old) to a seed of grass.
People are made in God's image with a moral code in their heart.
Why not? a one day "child" has not got a heart nor a brain yet and is much smaller than a seed.

We all came from dust and there we shall return but the soul goes upwards back to God when we die,
That we don't know. We might live more than 500 lives like Bouddha with some of them having shorter ones than others.

At the end of the day this is not a perfect world, well it might be in Its own way, but there are lot of things that are not supported by God, such as wars and so on. And sometimes abortion might be a better option.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:44 am

Tenez wrote:
bogbrush wrote:For me, abortion is murder. But that doesn't mean I'm saying it mustn't happen. I just think that if you're going to make decisions you should do it on honest bases. I detest people who have a preconceived outcome and decide to frame the debate dishonestly.

A good example on abortion is where they say "a woman has the right because it's her body". I always counter by asking if that applies to the hour before birth, and unless they are especially retarded they say of course not, and then I ask exactly where we draw the line then. 
This often leads to the idea that it's where the foetus (it's never a "baby", always a foetus) is viable on it's own, to which I always ask if this means a person in intensive care is now unprotected by law and I can go around switching them off. This also creates the weird idea that as medical science advances the definition of murder changes.
Another one is when they cite pregnancy in cases of rape. To that I like to suggest that by that they mean if I agree to abortion in cases of rape that means they'll agree to ban it in all other cases we might talk. Again, this ends the line because their premise is entirely dishonest - they're just trying to get you onto an extreme argument and undermine your position that way and the issue of rape is completely irrelevant (after all, the baby doesn't see the difference).

There are arguments for abortion but they are always based on a brutal decision, a bit like the arguments for dropping bombs on people. Like I say, I'm not expressing my position here but I am pointing out the dishonesty of most of the arguments in its favour.

Abortion is murder but murder of an unconscious soul. It is bad killing it but I have more problems with our politicians killing real children. In other words how can one be against abortion and yet re-elect guys like Bush or Blair? Unless you agree our politicians are doing their best to keep our countries afloat and that implies starting wars and control chaos around the world. Therefore killing is a necessary evil and abortion is a lesser moral issue to me.

So if you're asleep killing is a lesser crime? People in comas are completely screwed then.

By the way, how do we know an unborn baby is unconscious? My understanding is they learn their mothers voice, respond to stimuli, etc.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:47 am

noleisthebest wrote:You cannot liken a child in a mother's womb, (even one day old) to a seed of grass.
People are made in God's image with a moral code in their heart.

That's sepsrates us from all other creation and that is why it's subjected to us.

We all came from dust and there we shall return but the soul goes upwards back to God when we die,
There is no reason to believe God exists. To me it seems obvious there isn't a God, or a soul.

But killing a baby before it emerges from the uterus is still what it is.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:29 am

bogbrush wrote:So if you're asleep killing is a lesser crime? People in comas are completely screwed then.

By the way, how do we know an unborn baby is unconscious? My understanding is they learn their mothers voice, respond to stimuli, etc.
I'd say it is different to drop in unconscious state every night from never having been conscious. We know they are unconcsious cause even born babies are unconscious, if they were the could remember some of their baby life. And I am not saying it's ok to abort but sometimes it can be a better choice than maintain unwanted life. Imagine the suffering of a child without love! Is there anything worse?

And even unconsciousness has different state. The unconsciousness of an oyster is deeper less developped than a dog's. And apparently even plants have a form of consciousness/subconsciousness.

Do we know whether spermatozoa have a soul or not? they seem lively and pretty keen to find an ovum.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:37 am

bogbrush wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:You cannot liken a child in a mother's womb, (even one day old) to a seed of grass.
People are made in God's image with a moral code in their heart.

That's sepsrates us from all other creation and that is why it's subjected to us.

We all came from dust and there we shall return but the soul goes upwards back to God when we die,
There is no reason to believe God exists. To me it seems obvious there isn't a God, or a soul.
There is no way to prove there is an Architect but there are many reasons to believe there is a God ...and Evil. If you look at nature and politics, it's obvious to me both God and Evil are at work. You might not want to call them God and Evil as they often carry an irrational image or concept but there is something that is stronger and smarter than you and me.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:24 am

bogbrush wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:You cannot liken a child in a mother's womb, (even one day old) to a seed of grass.
People are made in God's image with a moral code in their heart.

That's separates us from all other creation and that is why it's subjected to us.

We all came from dust and there we shall return but the soul goes upwards back to God when we die,
There is no reason to believe God exists. To me it seems obvious there isn't a God, or a soul.

But killing a baby before it emerges from the uterus is still what it is.
It's not a matter of reason, it's a matter of faith/believing which is a matter of free choice.

People believe in God not because they are stupid or primitive as many like to think now.
The closer you are to nature the more obvious it is.

When Christ was around, he raised Lazarus, and people still didn't believe.

Only in the last 200 years roughly, atheism started with Darwin and communism.

Many pilots have said when the plane is going down, there are no atheists on board.

But while there is comfort of money in the bank and good health, men naturally tend to ignore God simply as his rules are too tough to follow, and people like to think of themselves as good, to fit their own standards of what good is.

And those standards are dropping fast as we can see all around us.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:40 am

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:You cannot liken a child in a mother's womb, (even one day old) to a seed of grass.
People are made in God's image with a moral code in their heart.
Why not? a one day "child" has not got a heart nor a brain yet and is much smaller than a seed.  

We all came from dust and there we shall return but the soul goes upwards back to God when we die,
That we don't know. We might live more than 500 lives like Bouddha with some of them having shorter ones than others.

At the end of the day this is not a perfect world, well it might be in Its own way, but there are lot of things that are not supported by God, such as wars and so on. And sometimes abortion might be a better option.

For who?

Who has the right to take someone's life?
Mother's womb is created to be the safest place on Earth for a child, and people have found the way to violate even that.

I agree there are very tough situations, but it is not ours to play God.

Killing in self defence is one thing, but being killed completely defenceless is something very different and evil.

Again, like everything else, we make free choices every day and many squeak at the tiniest of pressures and compromise  high standards.

Oh, it's just a little, white lie...
Oh, it's just an unconscious seed..
Oh it's just a 10 seconds extra on serve...

And as a result - our world is a big mess.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:27 am

noleisthebest wrote:I agree there are very tough situations, but it is not ours to play God.
We do play God on daily basis. Even educating a child is playing God. When you make someone redundant, elect a president or send a person to jail you "play God".

In the past you had no choice but kill children with deformity or separating from elders who could not contribute to work. If our ancestors had been much more lenient, the genetics of our societies woudl be much worse. We can be thankful evolution of mankind has been extremely selective. I know you don't believe in this but it is a simple fact of evolution.

Killing in self defence is one thing, but being killed completely defenceless is something very different and evil.

nature is Evil....as well as heavenly at times. We just get on with it.

Again, like everything else, we make free choices every day and many squeak at the tiniest of pressures and compromise  high standards.

Oh, it's just a little, white lie...
Oh, it's just an  unconscious seed..
Oh it's just a 10 seconds extra on serve...

And as a result - our world is a big mess.

yep...no one can create the perfect circle down here. Worse, we sometimes are forced to make sure it is not perfect. God does tempt us into temptation and forces us to do things we don;t want. Your church is based on the one disciple who denied Jesus 3 times!..yet apparently it is the one Jesus chose, not John his preferred one. Jesus even chose another disciple to put him on the cross.

And I am told that he won't pay much attention to human life when he will come back with his sword tongue.


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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:34 am

Tenez wrote:
bogbrush wrote:So if you're asleep killing is a lesser crime? People in comas are completely screwed then.

By the way, how do we know an unborn baby is unconscious? My understanding is they learn their mothers voice, respond to stimuli, etc.
I'd say it is different to drop in unconscious state every night from never having been conscious. We know they are unconcsious cause even born babies are unconscious, if they were the could remember some of their baby life. And I am not saying it's ok to abort but sometimes it can be a better choice than maintain unwanted life. Imagine the suffering of a child without love! Is there anything worse?

And even unconsciousness has different state. The unconsciousness of an oyster is deeper less developped than a dog's. And apparently even plants have a form of consciousness/subconsciousness.

Do we know whether spermatozoa have a soul or not? they seem lively and pretty keen to find an ovum.
A state of unconsciousness is what it is. Why would it make any difference?

Babies are often born crying and struggling. Doesn't sound unconscious to me.

There is no such thing as a soul, to sperms don't, no.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:35 am

Tenez wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:You cannot liken a child in a mother's womb, (even one day old) to a seed of grass.
People are made in God's image with a moral code in their heart.

That's sepsrates us from all other creation and that is why it's subjected to us.

We all came from dust and there we shall return but the soul goes upwards back to God when we die,
There is no reason to believe God exists. To me it seems obvious there isn't a God, or a soul.
There is no way to prove there is an Architect but there are many reasons to believe there is a God ...and Evil. If you look at nature and politics, it's obvious to me both God and Evil are at work. You might not want to call them God and Evil as they often carry an irrational image or concept but there is something that is stronger and smarter than you and me.
Nope, that's just your faith. It's called faith because it needs suspension of critical faculties.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:36 am

noleisthebest wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:You cannot liken a child in a mother's womb, (even one day old) to a seed of grass.
People are made in God's image with a moral code in their heart.

That's separates us from all other creation and that is why it's subjected to us.

We all came from dust and there we shall return but the soul goes upwards back to God when we die,
There is no reason to believe God exists. To me it seems obvious there isn't a God, or a soul.

But killing a baby before it emerges from the uterus is still what it is.
It's not a matter of reason, it's a matter of faith/believing which is a matter of free choice.

People believe in God not because they are stupid or primitive as many like to think now.
The closer you are to nature the more obvious it is.

When Christ was around, he raised Lazarus, and people still didn't believe.

Only in the last 200 years roughly, atheism started with Darwin and communism.

Many pilots have said when the plane is going down, there are no atheists on board.

But while there is comfort of money in the bank and good health, men naturally tend to ignore God simply as his rules are too tough to follow, and people like to think of themselves as good, to fit their own standards of what good is.

And those standards are dropping fast as we can see all around us.
He really didn't, it's a bullshit story. And how do we know there are no atheists on board?

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Daniel on Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:59 am

Jesus very likely was a real person who preached peace and was executed, but the only "evidence" of his life and his deeds is a man made book.  If I made a book claiming I could work miracles, would anyone be expected to believe it in 2000 years?  Of course not.  It's nonsense.

Also, the "plane going down" story is such a cliche pile of drivel. It's true that lots of people who are not religious will in fact pray and hope for the best.  That doesn't make them religious or believers.  It makes them desperate. Desperate for anything that can help.  Guess what?  It doesn't work - as evidenced by the THOUSANDS killed in air crashes. Just because someone prays at a time of utter chaos and panic it does not validate your deluded position that religion is real and right. 

If I get a hot poker and start jabbing it into your eyes until you deny Christ, believe me, you eventually will.  Does that mean you are really an atheist.  I am so tired of these ridiculous chestnut arguments. 

Also, as BB said... how do you KNOW that EVERYONE on board suddenly turned to god?  lol.  And, even if they did, it's still a fiction.  The argument of whether there is a god or not is not dependent on whether someone believes it. It is dependent on logic and rational arguments.  When you are about to die in a plane crash, you are not logical or rational. If anything, your "plane going down" argument validates the atheists position that belief in a deity is totally irrational!

Finally, the Muslims don't believe that Jesus is the son of god - and nor do Jews.  They believe in totally different things - and Allah is not the same god as Jehova. So, your argument isn't even consistent in regards to religion.


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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Daniel on Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:09 pm

luvsports! wrote:
Daniel wrote:
luvsports! wrote:
bogbrush wrote:For me, abortion is murder. But that doesn't mean I'm saying it mustn't happen. I just think that if you're going to make decisions you should do it on honest bases. I detest people who have a preconceived outcome and decide to frame the debate dishonestly.

A good example on abortion is where they say "a woman has the right because it's her body". I always counter by asking if that applies to the hour before birth, and unless they are especially retarded they say of course not, and then I ask exactly where we draw the line then. 
This often leads to the idea that it's where the foetus (it's never a "baby", always a foetus) is viable on it's own, to which I always ask if this means a person in intensive care is now unprotected by law and I can go around switching them off. This also creates the weird idea that as medical science advances the definition of murder changes.
Another one is when they cite pregnancy in cases of rape. To that I like to suggest that by that they mean if I agree to abortion in cases of rape that means they'll agree to ban it in all other cases we might talk. Again, this ends the line because their premise is entirely dishonest - they're just trying to get you onto an extreme argument and undermine your position that way and the issue of rape is completely irrelevant (after all, the baby doesn't see the difference).

There are arguments for abortion but they are always based on a brutal decision, a bit like the arguments for dropping bombs on people. Like I say, I'm not expressing my position here but I am pointing out the dishonesty of most of the arguments in its favour.

My views on abortion are changing a fair bit.
Before it was around 20 weeks, then 15, now 12. I am still pro choice but learning about how it is done is gruesome.


You're getting older and wiser.  And yet you whinge when I say the voting age should be raised.

Ta. That is a separate issue, one that you didn't respond to when i rebutted you.

You've just validated my position.  I am the one saying "ta".  Laugh

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:36 pm

Tenez wrote:
And I am told that he won't pay much attention to human life when he will come back with his sword tongue.  
I hope yo were also told that in the meantime everyone has free will to choose which camp to join.
Now, just like 2000 years ago, people reject him, think it's all "bullshit".

God is no man's debtor.

Anyway, I am happy and look forward to that day.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by legendkillar on Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:48 pm

Strewth!

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:52 pm

bogbrush wrote:
Tenez wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:You cannot liken a child in a mother's womb, (even one day old) to a seed of grass.
People are made in God's image with a moral code in their heart.

That's sepsrates us from all other creation and that is why it's subjected to us.

We all came from dust and there we shall return but the soul goes upwards back to God when we die,
There is no reason to believe God exists. To me it seems obvious there isn't a God, or a soul.
There is no way to prove there is an Architect but there are many reasons to believe there is a God ...and Evil. If you look at nature and politics, it's obvious to me both God and Evil are at work. You might not want to call them God and Evil as they often carry an irrational image or concept but there is something that is stronger and smarter than you and me.
Nope, that's just your faith. It's called faith because it needs suspension of critical faculties.

Nothing to do with faith I am afraid. Since you don;t know how you yourself function, absolutely incapable of explaining how you manage to coagulate your own blood through the succession of 19 chemical reactions, you owe a bit of respect for the one who does and make it happen. It might be yourself, you might call it nature or "mother Nature" but whatever it is, it is something that transcends you.

I like the religious approach cause it gives you wonderful symbols to understand a bit of it. But I can as easily have a purely "scientific" and logical approach of it all as well. Both sides can be compatible.


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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:57 pm

bogbrush wrote:
Tenez wrote:
bogbrush wrote:So if you're asleep killing is a lesser crime? People in comas are completely screwed then.

By the way, how do we know an unborn baby is unconscious? My understanding is they learn their mothers voice, respond to stimuli, etc.
I'd say it is different to drop in unconscious state every night from never having been conscious. We know they are unconcsious cause even born babies are unconscious, if they were the could remember some of their baby life. And I am not saying it's ok to abort but sometimes it can be a better choice than maintain unwanted life. Imagine the suffering of a child without love! Is there anything worse?

And even unconsciousness has different state. The unconsciousness of an oyster is deeper less developped than a dog's. And apparently even plants have a form of consciousness/subconsciousness.

Do we know whether spermatozoa have a soul or not? they seem lively and pretty keen to find an ovum.
A state of unconsciousness is what it is. Why would it make any difference?

Babies are often born crying and struggling. Doesn't sound unconscious to me.

There is no such thing as a soul, to sperms don't, no.
You are making the same mistake as those religious people. You and I cannot prove either. At least religious people can have visions to back up their own belief.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:29 pm

Tenez wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Tenez wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:You cannot liken a child in a mother's womb, (even one day old) to a seed of grass.
People are made in God's image with a moral code in their heart.

That's sepsrates us from all other creation and that is why it's subjected to us.

We all came from dust and there we shall return but the soul goes upwards back to God when we die,
There is no reason to believe God exists. To me it seems obvious there isn't a God, or a soul.
There is no way to prove there is an Architect but there are many reasons to believe there is a God ...and Evil. If you look at nature and politics, it's obvious to me both God and Evil are at work. You might not want to call them God and Evil as they often carry an irrational image or concept but there is something that is stronger and smarter than you and me.
Nope, that's just your faith. It's called faith because it needs suspension of critical faculties.

Nothing to do with faith I am afraid. Since you don;t know how you yourself function, absolutely incapable of explaining how you manage to coagulate your own blood through the succession of 19 chemical reactions, you owe a bit of respect for the one who does and make it happen. It might be yourself, you might call it nature or "mother Nature" but whatever it is, it is something that transcends you.

I like the religious approach cause it gives you wonderful symbols to understand a bit of it. But I can as easily have a purely "scientific" and logical approach of it all as well. Both sides can be compatible.
Yes, I do understand the process. It's just chemistry. The idea of a chemical process "transcending" me has no meaning, I am just a chemical process. I am that process, and so are you. There is no transcendance.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:34 pm

Tenez wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Tenez wrote:
bogbrush wrote:So if you're asleep killing is a lesser crime? People in comas are completely screwed then.

By the way, how do we know an unborn baby is unconscious? My understanding is they learn their mothers voice, respond to stimuli, etc.
I'd say it is different to drop in unconscious state every night from never having been conscious. We know they are unconcsious cause even born babies are unconscious, if they were the could remember some of their baby life. And I am not saying it's ok to abort but sometimes it can be a better choice than maintain unwanted life. Imagine the suffering of a child without love! Is there anything worse?

And even unconsciousness has different state. The unconsciousness of an oyster is deeper less developped than a dog's. And apparently even plants have a form of consciousness/subconsciousness.

Do we know whether spermatozoa have a soul or not? they seem lively and pretty keen to find an ovum.
A state of unconsciousness is what it is. Why would it make any difference?

Babies are often born crying and struggling. Doesn't sound unconscious to me.

There is no such thing as a soul, to sperms don't, no.
You are making the same mistake as those religious people. You and I cannot prove either. At least religious people can have visions to back up their own belief.
I'm really not. Saying there is no soul is about as dodgy as saying there is no Santa Claus. True, neither absence can be proven but in both cases the burden of proof is on the person claiming they exist and until then the default condition must logically be that they do not.

Religious persons visions are just psychosis. Same as their voices, same as one of the central stories of their religion - the one where the guy ties his son up on a mountain and attempts to kill him with a big knife because voices in his head told him to.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Daniel on Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:42 pm

Visions can be explained by science... and it's funny that these visions never happen to me, or Bogbrush, or Dawkins.  And if they ever did, we'd know they weren't real. We'd know that those making the claims wildly exaggerate them.  It's always to dumb people or those who want to believe. They're always the ones making the claims and making a simple hallucination into a spiritual gala.


God may be real, but, if it is, it has no concern for the mass death and suffering down here.  We're probably more like entertainment.  And religion is 100% man made.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:46 pm

bogbrush wrote:Yes, I do understand the process. It's just chemistry. The idea of a chemical process "transcending" me has no meaning, I am just a chemical process. I am that process, and so are you. There is no transcendance.

Fair enough. May I call you God then?

Having a logical mind, I would tend to believe that No matter, no space should exist. That to me is total logic and science. The fact there is something instead of nothing is an abnormal phenomenon for any logical mind.

However it happens that there is something. Nowadays we even think that first was energy, and that energy can turn into matter (and vice versa) and that matter follows a cooling down process as it expands which turns into more and more complex beings to the point they even seem to have some freedom.

So now if you compare the fact that we are debating philosophically about being or not being when frankly, logically,  there should be no time, no light, no space, then lots of people are entitled to call that Energy "God".


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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:50 pm

Daniel wrote:Visions can be explained by science... and it's funny that these visions never happen to me, or Bogbrush, or Dawkins.  And if they ever did, we'd know they weren't real. We'd know that those making the claims wildly exaggerate them.  It's always to dumb people or those who want to believe. They're always the ones making the claims and making a simple hallucination into a spiritual gala.


God may be real, but, if it is, it has no concern for the mass death and suffering down here.  We're probably more like entertainment.  And religion is 100% man made.
Of course you can explain everything by science....except the fact there is something instead of nothing.

Dawkins is such an idiot. More of a fanatic than a scientist to me.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:54 pm

Tenez wrote:
bogbrush wrote:Yes, I do understand the process. It's just chemistry. The idea of a chemical process "transcending" me has no meaning, I am just a chemical process. I am that process, and so are you. There is no transcendance.

Fair enough. May I call you God then?

Having a logical mind, I would tend to believe that No matter, no space should exist. That to me is total logic and science. The fact there is something instead of nothing is an abnormal phenomenon for any logical mind.

However it happens that there is something. Nowadays we even think that first was energy, and that energy can turn into matter (and vice versa) and that matter follows a cooling down process as it expands which turns into more and more complex beings to the point they even seem to have some freedom.

So now if you compare the fact that we are debating philosophically about being or not being when frankly, logically,  there should be no time, no light, no space, then lots of people are entitled to call that Energy "God".
By all means. You wouldn't be the first smiley

Energy and matter are transmutable even today; that's exactly what is powering the Sun, every star and of course all nuclear reactions. In the Sun what's happening is that when Hydrogen atoms merge to form Helium a photon is given off. E = mc2.

The more interesting thing is how the zero-point singularity becomes the Big Bang Universe - the concept of something seemingly from nothing. This is why the study of black holes really, really matters - because the singularity at the heart of a black hole is the only thing we know of that mimics the conditions of the pre-Big Bang state. 

We know that black hole singularities have qualities that require new physics - a reconciliation of quantum with Einsteinian physics - that nobody has yet achieved. This is needed because they are inflintely small (therefore in the realm of quantum physics) and incredibly massive (and so operate in classical scale). Guess what else corresponds to the same quality? The pre-Big Bang point! At this point the science gets into really weird stuff, like 11-dimensional strings, understanding the nature of time, and so on.

As for how matter gets from stray Hydrogen atoms into you and I, it sounds crazy but really it's explicable through entirely proven processes, it just takes an unimaginable length of time. That part is easy, it's explaining the physics of the singularity where the really difficult stuff lies - but we know singularities exist, we can identify where they are and observe their impact on space & time around them so it's not speculative.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by luvsports! on Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:01 pm

Daniel wrote:
luvsports! wrote:
Daniel wrote:
luvsports! wrote:
bogbrush wrote:For me, abortion is murder. But that doesn't mean I'm saying it mustn't happen. I just think that if you're going to make decisions you should do it on honest bases. I detest people who have a preconceived outcome and decide to frame the debate dishonestly.

A good example on abortion is where they say "a woman has the right because it's her body". I always counter by asking if that applies to the hour before birth, and unless they are especially retarded they say of course not, and then I ask exactly where we draw the line then. 
This often leads to the idea that it's where the foetus (it's never a "baby", always a foetus) is viable on it's own, to which I always ask if this means a person in intensive care is now unprotected by law and I can go around switching them off. This also creates the weird idea that as medical science advances the definition of murder changes.
Another one is when they cite pregnancy in cases of rape. To that I like to suggest that by that they mean if I agree to abortion in cases of rape that means they'll agree to ban it in all other cases we might talk. Again, this ends the line because their premise is entirely dishonest - they're just trying to get you onto an extreme argument and undermine your position that way and the issue of rape is completely irrelevant (after all, the baby doesn't see the difference).

There are arguments for abortion but they are always based on a brutal decision, a bit like the arguments for dropping bombs on people. Like I say, I'm not expressing my position here but I am pointing out the dishonesty of most of the arguments in its favour.

My views on abortion are changing a fair bit.
Before it was around 20 weeks, then 15, now 12. I am still pro choice but learning about how it is done is gruesome.


You're getting older and wiser.  And yet you whinge when I say the voting age should be raised.

Ta. That is a separate issue, one that you didn't respond to when i rebutted you.

You've just validated my position.  I am the one saying "ta".  Laugh

You still didn't respond to my retort.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:42 pm

bogbrush wrote:The more interesting thing is how the zero-point singularity becomes the Big Bang Universe - the concept of something seemingly from nothing. This is why the study of black holes really, really matters - because the singularity at the heart of a black hole is the only thing we know of that mimics the conditions of the pre-Big Bang state. 
It woudl not make a difference to a logical mind. I am not interested in how Energy turns into matter and vice versa. That woudl not explain why there is instead of why there is not. Understanding how energy turns into matter or how our blood coagulates doesn't solve the fundamental question.

A kid can play with legos like men can play with science and matter, I am interested in the fact there are legos in the first place and even more amazing a kid.
The only reason you are not in awe of this universe and of your own being, like some are of their God is that you are used to it and it transcends you. A bit like a kid is not astonished when you show him a mobile phone. He is just curious.

We know that black hole singularities have qualities that require new physics - a reconciliation of quantum with Einsteinian physics - that nobody has yet achieved. This is needed because they are inflintely small (therefore in the realm of quantum physics) and incredibly massive (and so operate in classical scale). Guess what else corresponds to the same quality? The pre-Big Bang point! At this point the science gets into really weird stuff, like 11-dimensional strings, understanding the nature of time, and so on.
Yeah but again for me that's not the main question.
As for how matter gets from stray Hydrogen atoms into you and I, it sounds crazy but really it's explicable through entirely proven processes, it just takes an unimaginable length of time. That part is easy, it's explaining the physics of the singularity where the really difficult stuff lies - but we know singularities exist, we can identify where they are and observe their impact on space & time around them so it's not speculative.
and once again, we can explain some processes but you cannot explain the will behind it. Why is there such will in the first place? The will which turned dead matter like stones to a bird. If you can imagine that a dinausor who coudl not fly end up flying many generation down the line, what made the stone "wanting" to turn into a dinosaur in the first place.

I know it takes time...but time is just time, what's guiding the whole process. A stone could just remain a stone....yet for some reasons it did not.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by bogbrush on Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:17 pm

There is no will. Only chemistry, only physics.

The process that causes random hydrogen atoms to eventually move as if it had will is very long but entirely predictable. There is no guide save natural selection (a process requiring no will).

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Daniel on Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:24 pm

I am not so sure about that BB.  There is a lot we don't understand.  But I think any rational person can agree that all religions are man made answers that are as insightful as the Tooth Fairy.

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Re: This Is What A Feminist Looks Like

Post by Tenez on Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:22 pm

bogbrush wrote:There is no will. Only chemistry, only physics.

The process that causes random hydrogen atoms to eventually move as if it had will is very long but entirely predictable. There is no guide save natural selection (a process requiring no will).
You see, you are like religious people expressing your views through dogmas.

You still have a will and/or desire to reply or not to those posts. If it followed physical and chemical laws, you'd have no choice. When you throw a stone in the air...it obeys an uncompromising physical law, same with chemistry. You can explain the homo sapiens with physics and chemistry, not the "homo sapiens sapiens".

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