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Neymar - Front and Centre

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Neymar - Front and Centre

Post by legendkillar on Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:11 am

It’s August 15th 1975. Genesis a UK progressive rock band had been making small waves. As a collective, very good band, but individually it’s difficult to actually pinpoint individual uniqueness. Peter Gabriel was the lead singer and a very good vocalist I might add. He was very flamboyant in what he wore on stage and tried to distinguish himself from the band. Genesis did have small success, but nothing that really elevated them to the next level. On this day, Peter Gabriel left the band. Such changes often serve as a Launchpad to further success or just carry on as you were. For both parties it was the latter, however Genesis following the departure of Gabriel installed Phil Collins the drummer as their lead singer. After Gabriel’s departure, Genesis went on to score 5 consecutive number 1 albums over an 11 year period and in that time Gabriel only yielded 1.

Neymar’s move to PSG has sent shockwaves through the football world. The fee and salary alone has caused much debate. However, interestingly the driver for such a move is to move out of the shadow that is Messi and become his own legend and not be satisfied with a supporting role. Frankly who remembers supporting acts right? Well Sean Connery for his role in the Untouchables would argue differently or Heath Ledger for his role in The Dark Knight would too. Sometimes there is that ability for the supporting act to actually when all said and done claim a much higher credit for their involvement in success. However in the world of sport, supporting acts just don’t get the reward.

However, is Neymar “The Man” material? Ronaldo is the man at Real Madrid as Messi is at Barcelona. Football has had a history of “The Man” Platini for France, Maradona for Argentina, Cantona for Man Utd as examples (there are many). I cite these examples of players that were catalysts that drove their teams to success. Could carry that burden. Neymar goes to a club that up and until recently had the ultimate charismatic talisman in Zlatan Ibrahimovic who’s arrival and impact at the club in 2012 led them to 3 successive league titles, 2 Coupe de France’s and 3 Coupe de la Ligues. Sadly none of Ibrahimovic’s magic translated into European success, but what he did was give them a flavour of success. Neymar in that regard has big shoes to fill. Zlatan is fondly remembered by the Paris fans who hold him in high esteem and not only is Neymar looking to escape Messi’s shadow but also try and eclipse Ibrahimovic’s achievements with the club.

I don’t rate Neymar better than Zlatan let alone Messi or even Suarez. What Paris also need to consider is whether they are getting true value for money. Neymar aspires to win World Player of the Year. He is 25. Maybe he needs to consider what came of previous Brazilian winners. Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho and Kaka. All by 30 were done at the highest level. Does Neymar have the longevity for the highest that eluded those before him. I take this into account. Alan Shearer signed for Newcastle Utd in 1996 at for a world record fee of £15M a month shy of his 26th birthday. In 10 years at Newcastle he scored 206 goals. Do I see Neymar doing that for Paris? I don’t. I think he will struggle to live up to the lofty expectations and ambitions his new masters have.   

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Re: Neymar - Front and Centre

Post by Tenez on Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:59 pm

I was a big fan of early genesis. Never liked Phil Collins' version.

However this summer in France, the press was hysterical about Neymar's move. That was the only thing important in the world.

Usually in the summer with the lack of proper news, stories about the Lock Ness reappearance or other UFO spotting make up for the lack of event but not this summer thanks football. Ridiculous.

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Re: Neymar - Front and Centre

Post by DECIMA on Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:08 pm

Neymar is a better player than Zlatan was when he moved to PSG, his shooting is similar but his dribbling and footwork sets him apart.
The french league is not that competitive, so I see him scoring 30 goals plus per season while he is there. But because they are expected to win Ligue 1 anyway, Neymar will be judged mainly on CL.

PSG's midfield and attack is:
Di Maria Verrati Rabiot/Matuidi
Draxler Cavani Neymar

That's sensational, and I see them reaching the latter stages of the CL; however I don't see them winning it with Barca, Real, and Bayern looking so strong on paper.

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Re: Neymar - Front and Centre

Post by legendkillar on Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:23 pm

Ten I think you're harsh on Collins. Invisible Touch album was a gem. My favourite of theirs by far. Very subtle vocals. Not too powerful. Sort of safe if you would.

Dec, they are nowhere similar in shooting. Ibra has much more power in his shooting. 30 goals a season?? Zlatan hit 113 goals in 122 league games. I'd be astonished if Neymar gets anywhere near that over the same duration. As for that midfield and attack. Without Neymar they didn't win the league last season. So first port of call for Neymar is to help them win the league and become the force again.

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Re: Neymar - Front and Centre

Post by DECIMA on Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:28 pm

Yeah you're right Ibra does have more power. And overall you're probably also right that Ibra when he was at PSG is a better shooter than Neymar now; I was influenced by Ibra's last season he just had at United where despite scoring many he also missed a lot and was actually not very clinical. But he was better at PSG, so you're probably right.

Neymar has footwork, dribbling and movement that Ibra never had. They're not really similar players.
And it's not just about scoring goals, it's possible Ibra will get more goals per game than Neymar, but Ibra played as CF while Neymar will probably play on the wing for PSG. They already have a goal machine in Cavani. Neymar's influence will be more than that, it will be assists, it will be drawing defenders forward and creating gaps by dribbling past them, and it will be goals.

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Re: Neymar - Front and Centre

Post by DECIMA on Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:29 pm

As for PSG winning the league, Monaco have sold Mendy Bakayoko Bernardo Silva, and could lose Mbappe and Lemar; so I don't seem them competing again for a second season running.

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Re: Neymar - Front and Centre

Post by legendkillar on Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:42 am

I think you don't do Ibra's season at Utd justice. When you consider that Martial and Rashford were deemed the next big bright lights following on from a promising previous campaign, Ibra outperformed the strike force with quite relative ease. He was easily their best player last season. To do that at his age and in that league was astonishing.

Last season Ibra played 46 games scoring 28 goals had 8 assists. Neymar played 45 and bagged only 20 goals and 19 assists. 3 goals difference. Bear in mind Ibra's season was finished in April due to injury. Ibra's role in the team very vastly underrated and underappreciated.

Neymar won't have anywhere near the impact or longevity of Ibrahimovic. He'll be done by 30 at the highest level like the other failed Brazilian hopes. Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Rivaldo, Robinho. All examples of players with breath-taking movement, but once they lost a step, lost to the lower leagues forever.

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Re: Neymar - Front and Centre

Post by DECIMA on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:28 am

legendkillar wrote:I think you don't do Ibra's season at Utd justice. When you consider that Martial and Rashford were deemed the next big bright lights following on from a promising previous campaign, Ibra outperformed the strike force with quite relative ease. He was easily their best player last season. To do that at his age and in that league was astonishing.

Last season Ibra played 46 games scoring 28 goals had 8 assists. Neymar played 45 and bagged only 20 goals and 19 assists. 3 goals difference. Bear in mind Ibra's season was finished in April due to injury. Ibra's role in the team very vastly underrated and underappreciated.
I watched United a lot last season and Ibra went through patches were he was not clinical at all, missing sitter after sitter at times. I don't think you can say Ibra was easily United's best player, he was certainly their best forward but Herrera and Valencia were both fantastic and right up there.
Also not sure you can compare Neymar and Ibra's stats, everything United did was to supply Ibra while Neymar was not the main man at Barca.

legendkillar wrote:
Neymar won't have anywhere near the impact or longevity of Ibrahimovic. He'll be done by 30 at the highest level like the other failed Brazilian hopes. Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Rivaldo, Robinho. All examples of players with breath-taking movement, but once they lost a step, lost to the lower leagues forever.
You may well be right, but we will see. Neymar is a genius, not in Messi's league, but his dribbling and technical ability is sensational. Messi is 30 now and still playing fantastic football, so hopefully Neymar can adapt his game when he gets older as well.

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Re: Neymar - Front and Centre

Post by legendkillar on Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:13 am

He was easily their best player. Take him out of the picture and Utd wouldn't have been anywhere near where they finished or won what they had. They scored 102 goals in all competitions. He accounted for 35% of their goals. Herrera and Valencia were very good, but not at Ibra's level. So what if he missed sitters. Can't say I know of any striker going through a season with a 100% strike/goal ratio. I didn't even believe when Ibra signed that he was going to have the season he did. Age and the league I felt were huge disadvantages and he coped with both with ease.

I can compare both Ibrahimovic and Neymar. You say he wasn't the main man, but main men don't sit on the sidelines and watch. They make themselves the main man. Paris are not paying £200M for a supporting act. The want a lead for that outlay. Main men still play as part of the team, but they are the ones who are going to make the difference, the ones who win matches that no-one else can. Neymar to me doesn't fit that bill.

Genius for me is so over-used in football. I won't say it is in the case of Neymar, because he has exceptionally quick feet and does display brilliance most times, but I've yet to feel like with other geniuses the game has seen, he just hasn't pushed through that glass ceiling of main manism. smiley

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Re: Neymar - Front and Centre

Post by ... on Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:14 am

DECIMA wrote:
legendkillar wrote:I think you don't do Ibra's season at Utd justice. When you consider that Martial and Rashford were deemed the next big bright lights following on from a promising previous campaign, Ibra outperformed the strike force with quite relative ease. He was easily their best player last season. To do that at his age and in that league was astonishing.

Last season Ibra played 46 games scoring 28 goals had 8 assists. Neymar played 45 and bagged only 20 goals and 19 assists. 3 goals difference. Bear in mind Ibra's season was finished in April due to injury. Ibra's role in the team very vastly underrated and underappreciated.
I watched United a lot last season and Ibra went through patches were he was not clinical at all, missing sitter after sitter at times. I don't think you can say Ibra was easily United's best player, he was certainly their best forward but Herrera and Valencia were both fantastic and right up there.
Also not sure you can compare Neymar and Ibra's stats, everything United did was to supply Ibra while Neymar was not the main man at Barca.

legendkillar wrote:
Neymar won't have anywhere near the impact or longevity of Ibrahimovic. He'll be done by 30 at the highest level like the other failed Brazilian hopes. Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Rivaldo, Robinho. All examples of players with breath-taking movement, but once they lost a step, lost to the lower leagues forever.
You may well be right, but we will see. Neymar is a genius, not in Messi's league, but his dribbling and technical ability is sensational. Messi is 30 now and still playing fantastic football, so hopefully Neymar can adapt his game when he gets older as well.
I think you are in a danger of overusing the word genius.

My definition of genius is someone who simply has unlimited talent.

Someone when you (eg in sport) watch them think they can do absolutely anything.

And usually only one person then comes to mind.

When it comes to football, to me it will only and always be Maradona.

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Re: Neymar - Front and Centre

Post by DECIMA on Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:21 pm

legendkillar wrote:He was easily their best player. Take him out of the picture and Utd wouldn't have been anywhere near where they finished or won what they had. They scored 102 goals in all competitions. He accounted for 35% of their goals. Herrera and Valencia were very good, but not at Ibra's level. So what if he missed sitters. Can't say I know of any striker going through a season with a 100% strike/goal ratio. I didn't even believe when Ibra signed that he was going to have the season he did. Age and the league I felt were huge disadvantages and he coped with both with ease.
It is true that Ibra did very well for his age, he was world class.
But leaving that aside, his overall goal tally and minutes/goal ratio was worse than Kane, Lukaku, Sanchez, Aguero- and the whole United team in every attack had the aim of just supplying Ibra. The sitters he missed cost United quite many points.


I can compare both Ibrahimovic and Neymar. You say he wasn't the main man, but main men don't sit on the sidelines and watch. They make themselves the main man. Paris are not paying £200M for a supporting act. The want a lead for that outlay. Main men still play as part of the team, but they are the ones who are going to make the difference, the ones who win matches that no-one else can. Neymar to me doesn't fit that bill.
Firstly at Barca Messi will be the main man, and rightly so.
Also I meant it in a position sense, Ibra is a CF while Neymar was playing on the wing for Barca, and could also play on the wing for PSG... I hope he does actually as it would be so unfair on Cavani to be either dropped or put on the wing after his fantastic season as a centre forward last season.
As for Neymar winning matches no one else can... did you watch Barca's come back against PSG? Neymar was sensational in the 6-1 win, MOTM.


Last edited by DECIMA on Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Neymar - Front and Centre

Post by DECIMA on Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:22 pm

... wrote:
I think you are in a danger of overusing the word genius.

My definition of genius is someone who simply has unlimited talent.

Someone when you (eg in sport) watch them think they can do absolutely anything.

And usually only one person then comes to mind.

When it comes to football, to me it will only and always be Maradona.

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Re: Neymar - Front and Centre

Post by ... on Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:47 pm


...

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Re: Neymar - Front and Centre

Post by legendkillar on Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:10 pm

DECIMA wrote:
legendkillar wrote:He was easily their best player. Take him out of the picture and Utd wouldn't have been anywhere near where they finished or won what they had. They scored 102 goals in all competitions. He accounted for 35% of their goals. Herrera and Valencia were very good, but not at Ibra's level. So what if he missed sitters. Can't say I know of any striker going through a season with a 100% strike/goal ratio. I didn't even believe when Ibra signed that he was going to have the season he did. Age and the league I felt were huge disadvantages and he coped with both with ease.
It is true that Ibra did very well for his age, he was world class.
But leaving that aside, his overall goal tally and minutes/goal ratio was worse than Kane, Lukaku, Sanchez, Aguero- and the whole United team in every attack had the aim of just supplying Ibra. The sitters he missed cost United quite many points.


I can compare both Ibrahimovic and Neymar. You say he wasn't the main man, but main men don't sit on the sidelines and watch. They make themselves the main man. Paris are not paying £200M for a supporting act. The want a lead for that outlay. Main men still play as part of the team, but they are the ones who are going to make the difference, the ones who win matches that no-one else can. Neymar to me doesn't fit that bill.
Firstly at Barca Messi will be the main man, and rightly so.
Also I meant it in a position sense, Ibra is a CF while Neymar was playing on the wing for Barca, and could also play on the wing for PSG... I hope he does actually as it would be so unfair on Cavani to be either dropped or put on the wing after his fantastic season as a centre forward last season.
As for Neymar winning matches no one else can... did you watch Barca's come back against PSG? Neymar was sensational in the 6-1 win, MOTM.


Wasn't the sitters that cost Utd points. It was their shambolic defending. Especially dealing with crosses. Kane, Lukaku, Sanchez, Aguero all scored more league goals than him and aside from Aguero by 30 minutes all played more minutes than Ibra! So it's not rocket science the goals/minutes ratio is low.

Neymar was part of an attacking trio, so he is just as limited to defending as Ibra is. If anything more space for Neymar to exploit than Ibra who just plays down the middle. I don't think it would be unfair for Neymar to be put ahead of Cavani down the middle. I wouldn't shell out that much money for a player to be sat out on the wing if they are going to be expected to spearhead the charge.

Granted Messi is the man at Barca, but that didn't stop him by 2006/7 by usurping the man that was Ronaldinho. The man doesn't just sit back, the man wants it, goes for it and becomes it. I think PSG are going to regret the deal from a financial perspective.

As for the 6-1 against PSG. One match? Needs to do it more than once.

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Re: Neymar - Front and Centre

Post by legendkillar on Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:14 pm

They're good, not the best though


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Re: Neymar - Front and Centre

Post by DECIMA on Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:30 pm

legendkillar wrote:

Wasn't the sitters that cost Utd points. It was their shambolic defending. Especially dealing with crosses. Kane, Lukaku, Sanchez, Aguero all scored more league goals than him and aside from Aguero by 30 minutes all played more minutes than Ibra! So it's not rocket science the goals/minutes ratio is low.
Sorry maybe there's some confusion here, I'm talking about goals per minute ratio. So even if the others have played more minutes, they not only have more goals but more goals per minute played.
As for United, I do think missed chances played a bigger part than bad defending; if you look at the stats United's defensive record (goals conceded) does compare well to the other top teams, but goals scored is far lower than the other top teams.


Neymar was part of an attacking trio, so he is just as limited to defending as Ibra is. If anything more space for Neymar to exploit than Ibra who just plays down the middle.
Yes, but the chances for a centre forward to score are more frequent because of their position, it's not just that Ibra had less defensive duties.

I don't think it would be unfair for Neymar to be put ahead of Cavani down the middle. I wouldn't shell out that much money for a player to be sat out on the wing if they are going to be expected to spearhead the charge.
Tactically speaking though, Neymar on the wing with Cavani the goal machine in the middle would be more effective, Neymar, can cross, can assist, can also dribble and cut in from the wing to score- while Cavani is a specialist at converting. Neymar on the wing supplying Cavani would be a fantastic partnership.  
But you are right that simply because of the money they have spent on Neymar, pragmatism may go out of the window and Neymar may be played centrally.


Granted Messi is the man at Barca, but that didn't stop him by 2006/7 by usurping the man that was Ronaldinho. The man doesn't just sit back, the man wants it, goes for it and becomes it.
OK we are both agreed on this one, Neymar does not compare to Messi Magic

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Re: Neymar - Front and Centre

Post by legendkillar on Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:38 pm

DECIMA wrote:
legendkillar wrote:

Wasn't the sitters that cost Utd points. It was their shambolic defending. Especially dealing with crosses. Kane, Lukaku, Sanchez, Aguero all scored more league goals than him and aside from Aguero by 30 minutes all played more minutes than Ibra! So it's not rocket science the goals/minutes ratio is low.
Sorry maybe there's some confusion here, I'm talking about goals per minute ratio. So even if the others have played more minutes, they not only have more goals but more goals per minute played.
As for United, I do think missed chances played a bigger part than bad defending; if you look at the stats United's defensive record (goals conceded) does compare well to the other top teams, but goals scored is far lower than the other top teams.


Neymar was part of an attacking trio, so he is just as limited to defending as Ibra is. If anything more space for Neymar to exploit than Ibra who just plays down the middle.
Yes, but the chances for a centre forward to score are more frequent because of their position, it's not just that Ibra had less defensive duties.

I don't think it would be unfair for Neymar to be put ahead of Cavani down the middle. I wouldn't shell out that much money for a player to be sat out on the wing if they are going to be expected to spearhead the charge.
Tactically speaking though, Neymar on the wing with Cavani the goal machine in the middle would be more effective, Neymar, can cross, can assist, can also dribble and cut in from the wing to score- while Cavani is a specialist at converting. Neymar on the wing supplying Cavani would be a fantastic partnership.  
But you are right that simply because of the money they have spent on Neymar, pragmatism may go out of the window and Neymar may be played centrally.


Granted Messi is the man at Barca, but that didn't stop him by 2006/7 by usurping the man that was Ronaldinho. The man doesn't just sit back, the man wants it, goes for it and becomes it.
OK we are both agreed on this one, Neymar does not compare to Messi Magic

No confusion. That's how the goal/minute ratio is calculated. So I am not sure where the confusion lie. Those ahead of him 1) scored more goals and 2) played more minutes. It would only look more skewered for those who played say 3 matches and scored 3 goals. In it's context, it's a meaningless stat.

The Neymar and Messi comparisons will only ignite if Neymar really does drive PSG to the next level.

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Re: Neymar - Front and Centre

Post by DECIMA on Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:18 pm

PSG now closing in on Mbappe, so they could technically line up like this:

Neymar Cavani Mbappe
Draxler Veratti Di Maria

That's insane

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Re: Neymar - Front and Centre

Post by legendkillar on Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:37 am

I still think Real will get Mbappe. Think about it. Real or PSG? No contest really.

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Re: Neymar - Front and Centre

Post by DECIMA on Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:05 pm

He's going to PSG nonetheless

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