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How long can this go on?

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How long can this go on?

Post by bogbrush on Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:15 pm

This Federer 2017 resurgence isn't just a last hurrah. It's foundations are far deeper and stronger than that.

- his strokeplay is better than at any time in his career
- his game us putting less stress on his body than ever before
- he's determined to manage the schedule to prevent fitness pulling him down
- Djokovic and Murray are in turmoil, I think Murray might never return properly
- he's worked out how to handle Nadal with the backhand so that the match up is no longer terrible
- he's clearly still got it over the younger guys
- he's hungry, and Mirka is happy to support him (more massive rocks on the finger won't hurt I guess!)

So on this basis where does this end? The guy has said he'd fancy playing Wimbledon main draw at 40!! (a shudder passes through the collective spine of the field).

Is it only going to stop with a final warning from the back? Can the field ever overhaul him or make his game obsolete? Would it be possible for him to get bored?

And how many Slams might he end up with?

I think he'll play for another three years on a reducing schedule before something plays up too much. And I think there might be 2/3 more Slams to come, and another stint at #1.

And Jimmy Connors "unbeatable" win record is in doubt.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by Daniel on Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:43 pm

Well, we have to remember that Federer did come off a long drought and it's tempting to think this will be the norm - but tennis often takes one or two losses - or an injury - to completely change things.  At almost 36, injuries and problems are going to happen more often.  If Federer can keep the level of intensity and desire AND remain injury free (obviously have great scheduling), then he could win another one or two.  I definitely do not see him doing anything like 2 slams in one year again - but I also didn't think it was possible this year either. Federer is definitely less physical than he used to be - and has lost a step, but he's compensated in other areas.  The 2006 Fed would still destroy this version.

The younger players are going to reach their potential (seriously, they've been woeful), and I don't think even Federer can stave off the effects of time forever (not just running, stamina - but fine motor skills). I say enjoy this year as if it's his last good year - because it very well might be.  Such is tennis.  Anything now is a bonus.  He will start favourite for the US Open too.  If he remains fit and keeps doing what he's doing, he can clearly compete for at least the next 2 years.

The truth is that there has never been another player like Federer, so we're in uncharted territory where predictions are concerned.  It's also important to note that had Nadal won the Australian Open from being 3-1 up in the fifth, this year could have been very different for us.  That was the margin.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by bogbrush on Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:14 pm

Looking around from that article I came across this brilliant post in the comments section. "Tony" was moved to respond to the Grauniad matching the silly BBC line about his Slam records being behind some women.

"It is a faulty comparison, disingenuous and inappropriate to compare Federer’s 19th grand slam title with the slams won by “the ladies” (Moody, Graf, Williams, Court). First, the Women’s Tennis Association rulebook explicitly bans male players from competing on the WTA Tour! Such sexism and gender discrimination against men invalidates any hypocritical claim that women’s tennis deserves to be treated on par with men’s tennis. Second, if Mitchell includes “the ladies” then he should have applied consistent standards to include the champions of all other slam events (wheelchair tennis, doubles, mixed doubles, junior boys, junior girls, legends, etc.) such as Shingo Kunieda and Esther Vergeer. If a junior champion has won 25 slams from age 10 to 18, the author should coronate this kid as the GOAT of ALL tennis – but this would be silly, isn’t it.
The reality is that women's tennis, mens tennis and all the other slam events are each different sporting competitions (with different competitors, conditions and rules). So equating slams won in mens tennis and womens tennis is illogical, false and misleading.
Regardless, men’s ATP tennis is the highest standard of elite tennis event and performance on the planet. Serena Williams is unlikely to beat the top 1,000 ranked men. When Serena and Venus played a tired and drunk No. 203 male player, they were beaten 1-6 and 6-2 respectively. Unlike Danica Patrick in car racing (equestrian, horse racing, chess, sailing, shooting, climbing), Serena and the other top women are unwilling to compete on the ATP Tour (even though the ATP rulebook does not prohibit women from competing on the mens tour).
Thus, Federer’s 19 slams arguably stand alone in the tennis world. Though an argument might be made that if the Grand Slams had been open to professionals throughout tennis history, it’s likely that Ken Rosewall might possibly have won 17 to 19 singles titles (Rod Laver probably 16 to 18 singles titles).
Contrary to the myth, Federer has not “eluded the grief of injury in his long career”. He has endured both illness (mononucleosis, pneumonia, etc.) and injuries (e.g., 2005, 2008, 2009, 2013, 2016). Federer has played ill or injured many times yet has never once retired once a match has started (a record he also holds) even when it meant inevitably losing, despite playing the second most number of career matched during the ATP era.
Federer and Nadal did not have a dual dominance over the ATP Tour before Djokovic’s dominance began in 2011. The reality was that Federer’s overall domination of the ATP Tour was longer, deeper and greater than Nadal’s domination. Federer was World No. 1 In the years 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2009 – during these 5 years Federer had a 376-36 win-loss (91%) and won 46 titles (13 slams, 3 year-end championships). Nadal was World No. 1 in 2008, 2010 and 2013 – during these 3 years he had a 228-28 win-loss (89%) and won 25 titles (7 slams).
Between 2005 and 2010, when Federer and Nadal were No. 1 and No. 2, Federer had a 433-58 win-loss (88%) and won 45 titles (12 slams, 3 year-end championships). Nadal had a 427-72 win-loss (85%) and won 42 titles (9 slams). Djokovic was No. 1 in 2011, 2012, 2014 and 2015, bringing to an end the 6-year period when Federer and Nadal were No. 1 or No. 2.
Federer career stats: http://tinyurl.com/y9nb9wqh
Nadal career stats: http://tinyurl.com/ydaslr5n
All-time tennis records – men's singles: http://tinyurl.com/zdhsy9y

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by Daniel on Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:15 pm

I also saw it.  And saved it Winking

The Guardian is as bat shit left as it gets...  and that's why they are begging for donations.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by bogbrush on Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:17 pm

The guy then follows it up with this masterpiece. He should come on here.

One of the biggest myths is that Federer has stayed healthy while Nadal has not. The fact is Nadal has actually played the tenth most number of career matches of all players in the open era since 1968! Nadal has played only slightly fewer matches than Federer had done by his age. Nadal is more durable than most people have been led to believe. Despite all his injury claims, Nadal has never once had surgery for an injury (although he once did have elective surgery for a mild case of appendicitis)
http://tinyurl.com/gvxwdxr
Team Nadal has been planning Nadal's schedule very carefully, giving him periodic breaks from hardcourt indoors/outdoors and grasscourt tournaments since late 2005 when Nadal skipped the 2005 year-end championships (WTF) and 2006 Australian Open. In 2008, Nadal claimed his knees were injured and so he skipped the year-end championships in Shanghai and Davis Cup finals in Argentina (which Spain won without Nadal) -- yet Nadal was photographed enjoying water-skiing and other water sports in the Mauritius in the week between these big tennis events. In 2012, during Federer's resurgence, Nadal took seven months off the tour from July 2012 to February 2013 claiming to have an injured left knee: yet Nadal played golf tournaments during both the 2012 US Open and 2013 Australian Open (winning the later golf event). Nadal's right-handed golf swing means he pivots on his supposedly injured left knee.
http://i2.esmas.com/galerias/fotos/2008/11/2008211034241227285264.jpg
http://www.hcfoo.com/2008/11/rafael-nadals-rehab-in-mauritius.html
http://www.marca.com/2012/11/25/en/more_sports/1353872022.html
In 2005, Federer had to withdraw from several Masters tournaments due to various leg injuries, including a torn ankle tendon: Rome Masters, Montreal Masters, Madrid Indoor Masters, Paris Indoor Masters (he also played the Australian Open semifinal against Safin with a blister on a toe and the pain in an elbow). In 2008 Australian Open, Federer played while suffering mononucleosis. Back injuries have troubled Federer throughout his career, even in the middle of his runs to the 2003 Wimbledon and 2012 Wimbledon titles.
Why do we have the perception that Nadal has suffered the consequences of injury while Federer is healthy? Federer rarely mentions his injuries or uses injury as an excuse for losing.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:26 pm

bogbrush wrote:This Federer 2017 resurgence isn't just a last hurrah. It's foundations are far deeper and stronger than that.

- his strokeplay is better than at any time in his career .
Agree.
Though he now has the help of a larger frame.

bogbrush wrote:
- his game us putting less stress on his body than ever before
It is compared to most other players (exceptions: Muller, Karlovic, Brown)
However, his legs have serious milage in them. And his game requires light feet and perfect footwork.
So it's all about perfect balance in his case. Any parameter out slightly, and it's not the same player - he struggles, i.e. has to grind and that is a sure shortcut to the end.
bogbrush wrote:
- he's determined to manage the schedule to prevent fitness pulling him down
He's been doing it for years and I don't think he's got much roomto play with amy more, it's already been cut to the bone more or less.
He himself said in the post Wimb interview he needs matches in order to win, practice in itself can't compensate for competition.
bogbrush wrote:
- Djokovic and Murray are in turmoil, I think Murray might never return properly
Not sure about it, unless he has a very serious injury.
Murray's game is even more physical than Nadal's these days, as he is bigger than him and runs as much or more.
bobbrush wrote:
- he's worked out how to handle Nadal with the backhand so that the match up is no longer terrible
True, but  Nadal is still close esp on anything slower.
bogbrush wrote:
- he's clearly still got it over the younger guys
He does,  because he's got tons of game and experience.
He insinuated the young generation need to change the way they are playing if they want to beat the old guard and I agree. If A. Zverev played like his older brother...
If Thiem came closer to the baseline, if Rublev got a few more wild cards, if Pouille forgot about being French hope and started playing freely like in the beginning, if Kyrgios had lobotomy....
bogbrush wrote:
- he's hungry, and Mirka is happy to support him (more massive rocks on the finger won't hurt I guess!)
Haha. You really have it for the rocks...what's the big deal...it's just that - pretty rocks.
If she likes them and can afford them why not.
I have no jewellery as it doesn't do anything for me, but don't judge those who do...
bogbrush wrote:
So on this basis where does this end? The guy has said he'd fancy playing Wimbledon main draw at 40!! (a shudder passes through the collective spine of the field).
Tough to say.
I'd say his body won't be able to cope beyond 38.
bogbrush wrote:

Is it only going to stop with a final warning from the back? Can the field ever overhaul him or make his game obsolete? Would it be possible for him to get bored?
He will never get bored od the ball. It's his first love. [/quote]
bogbrush wrote:
And how many Slams might he end up with?
21?

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by HM Murdoch on Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:39 pm

To (reputedly) quote Harold Macmillan: "Events, dear boy, events"

I think it's worth considering other occasions a similar question to one in the OP could have been asked.

September 2010 - Rafa has seen off Federer and he's winning slams on all surfaces. He has no other rivals. What can stop his beating Federer's records? As it turns out, the perennial number 3 suddenly goes up a gear and enters his own period of dominance.

June 2016 - Djokovic owns every slam and all the talk is that for the first time ever a player is the favourite on every surface. Federer and Nadal are shadows of their former selves as they fight injury, Murray can't seem to buy a win against him. What happens? Total loss of form from Djoko, a surge of form from the rivals.

In fact, when was the last time that one year in tennis proved to be a reliable indicator of the next? 2006?

One can offer specific answers to your question - my suspicion is that injury will be a bigger threat than a rival - but I just don't expect the tennis landscape to remain constant enough for this glut from Federer to continue for years. Something unexpected always happens!

I think he's good for this year though and very likely to reach #1.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by Tenez on Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:55 pm

I think we are overestimating his chances to carry on winning in the near future cause we are underestimating the fragility of his game.

I woudl not be surprised to see him lose quite a few matches from now on. Will he have the same desire to win teh USO than Wimby8? I doubt it.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by bogbrush on Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:30 pm

Yes. The question invited the reason why it couldn't; no matter how much I enjoy it of course it must come to an end.

My gut feel is that there's maybe a small spell for a while where he can win and then something will happen; an injury, a resurgent Djokovic or emergent Zverev etc. The one thing I don't see is him calling time while he's competitive.

How good are those guys posts? That's like a reference book for the injury argument.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by Tenez on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:36 pm

bogbrush wrote:Looking around from that article I came across this brilliant post in the comments section. "Tony" was moved to respond to the Grauniad matching the silly BBC line about his Slam records being behind some women.
......
Both posts from this guy are really spot on. I agree, woudl be great to have him here.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by summerblues on Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:43 am

I have no idea how long it will go on.  I never expected anything like the 2017 we have had so far was possible, so I am not going to say it is impossible for it to continue.  But I would not be surprised if it all snapped back and returned to more normal levels of play just as quickly as it started.

I will just sit back, enjoy it and see how it goes.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:31 pm

bogbrush wrote:Looking around from that article I came across this brilliant post in the comments section. "Tony" was moved to respond to the Grauniad matching the silly BBC line about his Slam records being behind some women.

"It is a faulty comparison, disingenuous and inappropriate to compare Federer’s 19th grand slam title with the slams won by “the ladies” (Moody, Graf, Williams, Court). First, the Women’s Tennis Association rulebook explicitly bans male players from competing on the WTA Tour! Such sexism and gender discrimination against men invalidates any hypocritical claim that women’s tennis deserves to be treated on par with men’s tennis. Second, if Mitchell includes “the ladies” then he should have applied consistent standards to include the champions of all other slam events (wheelchair tennis, doubles, mixed doubles, junior boys, junior girls, legends, etc.) such as Shingo Kunieda and Esther Vergeer. If a junior champion has won 25 slams from age 10 to 18, the author should coronate this kid as the GOAT of ALL tennis – but this would be silly, isn’t it.
The reality is that women's tennis, mens tennis and all the other slam events are each different sporting competitions (with different competitors, conditions and rules). So equating slams won in mens tennis and womens tennis is illogical, false and misleading.
Regardless, men’s ATP tennis is the highest standard of elite tennis event and performance on the planet. Serena Williams is unlikely to beat the top 1,000 ranked men. When Serena and Venus played a tired and drunk No. 203 male player, they were beaten 1-6 and 6-2 respectively. Unlike Danica Patrick in car racing (equestrian, horse racing, chess, sailing, shooting, climbing), Serena and the other top women are unwilling to compete on the ATP Tour (even though the ATP rulebook does not prohibit women from competing on the mens tour).
Thus, Federer’s 19 slams arguably stand alone in the tennis world. Though an argument might be made that if the Grand Slams had been open to professionals throughout tennis history, it’s likely that Ken Rosewall might possibly have won 17 to 19 singles titles (Rod Laver probably 16 to 18 singles titles).
Contrary to the myth, Federer has not “eluded the grief of injury in his long career”. He has endured both illness (mononucleosis, pneumonia, etc.) and injuries (e.g., 2005, 2008, 2009, 2013, 2016). Federer has played ill or injured many times yet has never once retired once a match has started (a record he also holds) even when it meant inevitably losing, despite playing the second most number of career matched during the ATP era.
Federer and Nadal did not have a dual dominance over the ATP Tour before Djokovic’s dominance began in 2011. The reality was that Federer’s overall domination of the ATP Tour was longer, deeper and greater than Nadal’s domination. Federer was World No. 1 In the years 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2009 – during these 5 years Federer had a 376-36 win-loss (91%) and won 46 titles (13 slams, 3 year-end championships). Nadal was World No. 1 in 2008, 2010 and 2013 – during these 3 years he had a 228-28 win-loss (89%) and won 25 titles (7 slams).
Between 2005 and 2010, when Federer and Nadal were No. 1 and No. 2, Federer had a 433-58 win-loss (88%) and won 45 titles (12 slams, 3 year-end championships). Nadal had a 427-72 win-loss (85%) and won 42 titles (9 slams). Djokovic was No. 1 in 2011, 2012, 2014 and 2015, bringing to an end the 6-year period when Federer and Nadal were No. 1 or No. 2.
Federer career stats: http://tinyurl.com/y9nb9wqh
Nadal career stats: http://tinyurl.com/ydaslr5n
All-time tennis records – men's singles: http://tinyurl.com/zdhsy9y


Do you know what infuriates me about such pieces? It was reading ok until he mentioned "injury" then it turned into that age old argument of when is an injury an injury. It annoys the f out of me when I read those commenting on injuries. Honestly Federer up until last year was very fortunate not to miss big chunks of his career due to injury and more so avoid any major surgeries. Yes his back has dogged him, but that sounds more of a persistent niggle and when you play like they do, I can imagine they never properly recover with so little restbite in between.

I don't know the extent of the injuries players carry or even their pain tolerance thresholds. What strikes me is how well Federer has managed his body over his career. His playing style has a lot to do with that, however he has managed his body and his schedule near perfection.

As for Nadal it was very obvious from the beginning his style would catch up with him and it did so early. When you consider it was the knees first and then his back and then his wrist. He flogged his body and despite the time off court he has had with rest and recovery, it's a taxing style. Something Novak and Andy are finding out for themselves now.

I have admiration for athletes in the sense that their body is their livelihood and if that goes, essentially they are left with nothing to pay the bills. I always recall 12 years ago when playing football and pre-season I strained me groin, but because I was playing so well at that time I didn't want to stop. So continued playing. For 9 months it done me in. I would play, be sore for a few days, do light training without total aggravation and then play a match and be sore. Eventually it was no fun and I took 4 months out to recover when the season ended and I could never recapture the form that served me well. Now I suffer now with niggles from those days back, knees, but that's wear and tear. However, I always remember that groin strain because I knew it would take months to recover. Never stopped me working my job. For athletes I can imagine they similarly have long standing injuries they don't want to take the necessary time to recover because of desire, pride, fight to stay at their absolute peak when the results are going their way. I can imagine they fear if taking time out to recover might affect their levels when they come back or show mental scars from the injury or niggle and not wanting to re-injure.

I so get annoyed with the "when's an injury an injury" crap.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by Tenez on Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:38 pm

legendkillar wrote:..Do you know what infuriates me about such pieces? It was reading ok until he mentioned "injury" then it turned into that age old argument of when is an injury an injury. It annoys the f out of me when I read those commenting on injuries. Honestly Federer up until last year was very fortunate not to miss big chunks of his career due to injury and more so avoid any major surgeries. Yes his back has dogged him, but that sounds more of a persistent niggle and when you play like they do, I can imagine they never properly recover with so little restbite in between.

I don't know the extent of the injuries players carry or even their pain tolerance thresholds. What strikes me is how well Federer has managed his body over his career. His playing style has a lot to do with that, however he has managed his body and his schedule near perfection.

As for Nadal it was very obvious from the beginning his style would catch up with him and it did so early. When you consider it was the knees first and then his back and then his wrist. He flogged his body and despite the time off court he has had with rest and recovery, it's a taxing style. Something Novak and Andy are finding out for themselves now.

I have admiration for athletes in the sense that their body is their livelihood and if that goes, essentially they are left with nothing to pay the bills. I always recall 12 years ago when playing football and pre-season I strained me groin, but because I was playing so well at that time I didn't want to stop. So continued playing. For 9 months it done me in. I would play, be sore for a few days, do light training without total aggravation and then play a match and be sore. Eventually it was no fun and I took 4 months out to recover when the season ended and I could never recapture the form that served me well. Now I suffer now with niggles from those days back, knees, but that's wear and tear. However, I always remember that groin strain because I knew it would take months to recover. Never stopped me working my job. For athletes I can imagine they similarly have long standing injuries they don't want to take the necessary time to recover because of desire, pride, fight to stay at their absolute peak when the results are going their way. I can imagine they fear if taking time out to recover might affect their levels when they come back or show mental scars from the injury or niggle and not wanting to re-injure.

I so get annoyed with the "when's an injury an injury" crap.

Injuries are a big part of the game. An injury can take you from holding the 4 slams to holding none in a flash. Players do not mention it that often but as a spectator I do see sometimes their impediments and there is no reason why I should not talk about it in a forum where the very purpose is to discuss form of the players.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by bogbrush on Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:03 pm

But all he's saying, lk, is that it's a myth that somehow Federers been blessed and Nadal cursed. His command of detail exceeds my own so I leave it to others to confirm or dispute his argument. However, I don't think he's on an injury excuse session, more the opposite.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by DECIMA on Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:05 pm

Yeah but when I did say that Nadal has had injury problems, I remember Tenez giving me a huge lecture on how injuries are a sign of a lack of talent, and thus Nadal was getting injured.
You can't have it both ways.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by Daniel on Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:10 am

I personally believe (as does the author of those posts) that Nadal is a bullshitter who just wanted to rest up and so used the excuse to get out of mandatory play.  I've always said that is the more likely scenario than what you guys go on about (peds). As the author notes, Nadal is always miraculously fine for the clay season - esp RG.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by DECIMA on Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:56 am

Yeah but you can't have double standards, Federer has (not talking about most recent clay season) also skipped parts of the tour and come back after rest at the right time and not necessarily as early as possible.
At the end of the day it's the athlete's responsibility to look after their body, the authorities always want them to play as it's best for their financial interests.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by Daniel on Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:49 am

Federer has taken off parts of the tour within the rules...  Nadal had to lie in order to get extra time off, and that's my problem with it.  There are strict rules by ATP governing what events you can skip and when.  I think Federer is eligible now to skip the lot? That said, there is some hypocrisy going on in this thread.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by DECIMA on Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:55 am

We will have to agree to disagree; Nadal was in decent form in 2012 and at 26 relatively young so it makes more logical sense that he missed 6 months of the tour due to injury than randomly resting up. If he wanted to rest he could have done it for as many months between October-March and not miss as many Grand Slams. Not necessary that it was a horrific injury that required him in a wheelchair; but it could have been an injury nonetheless that needed a bit of rest to help elongate his career. He has to be smart, and you need to be fair!

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by summerblues on Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:01 am

I think people tend to focus on injuries if they are more emotionally attached to the player himself rather than to their game.

If it is the player you are attached to, injury is more likely to seem "unfair" - "he is so good but that injury deprives him of showing it all".

If you care more strictly about the game, injury is not that different from anything else (lack of form, lack of talent, laziness etc).  Either the game is there or not, does not matter all that much why.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by DECIMA on Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:08 am

summerblues wrote:
If you care more strictly about the game, injury is not that different from anything else (lack of form, lack of talent, laziness etc).  Either the game is there or not, does not matter all that much why.
On an absolute basis, fine; if you take Fed vs Stakhovsky, you could sit there saying 'oh wow Stak was the better player on the day, he deserved to win, he won 3 sets while Federer won 1 etc.'
All technically true, but when I make my judgement, I would give much more credit to let's say Roddick in 2009 who even though he lost to Federer for me did a more impressive thing than what Stakhovsky did.
And injury is different from lack of effort in training because that can be consciously rectified by a player but an injury is harder to do so. Talent is also different as that is inherently one of the things we are observing when subjectively judging a player; but while injuries can be caused by genetic make up or training schedule- people simply don't care about the propensity to get injured per se, other than the fact it affects results (which are then judged independently).

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by summerblues on Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:13 am

DECIMA wrote:And injury is different from lack of effort in training because that can be consciously rectified by a player but an injury is harder to do so.
Yes, but is this not more or less in line with what I was saying?  You make the distinction because a player can rectify one but not the other, ergo you care about the player rather than their performance.  From the performance perspective it makes no difference.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by DECIMA on Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:17 am

summerblues wrote: From the performance perspective it makes no difference.
Yeah I don't think anyone is arguing with that. If Fed has a bad back or Nadal has a bad knee they could be playing the same level of tennis as a lowly ranked healthy player who hasn't put much effort into training- that's ok. But in terms of further analysis, the player is important, so that distinction is important. Which comment exactly are you being critical of here?

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by Tenez on Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:50 am

DECIMA wrote:Yeah but when I did say that Nadal has had injury problems, I remember Tenez giving me a huge lecture on how injuries are a sign of a lack of talent, and thus Nadal was getting injured.
You can't have it both ways.
Well you cannot put everything or everybody in the same basket. There were some very dubious injuries from Nadal...and unlike federer who was trying to hide them, Nadal had press conferences about them.

I also clearly mentioned some of his injuries when I saw them. His AO loss to Ferrer with a groin injury was obvious to me while a lot of the anti-nadal never believed in it. Same for his loss in the same tournament final v Stan a few years later.

Not everything is black and white and those forum exist to discuss everything in between.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by legendkillar on Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:08 am

bogbrush wrote:But all he's saying, lk, is that it's a myth that somehow Federers been blessed and Nadal cursed. His command of detail exceeds my own so I leave it to others to confirm or dispute his argument. However, I don't think he's on an injury excuse session, more the opposite.


I know it wasn't the theme of the article, but it annoys me in the comparative way in which injuries are classified.

I don't believe for a moment Nadal has been cursed. His style was always going to catch up with him. To have such a taxing style, it would be miraculous if he didn't suffer injuries or niggles at all during his career.

Federer being blessed. Not so much blessed, but has certainly benefited from very immaculate conditioning in the sense he has managed to make it on court and not ever retired from a match. Some might consider that lucky, even with the odd slip on court. Been lucky with the mono side when you look at the likes of Ancic and Soderling who never fully recovered. So I don't think he has true perspective of those implications.

I agree with him on the whole element of the equality angle.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by bogbrush on Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:06 pm

Very lucky on the mono, yes.

I think the never retiring thing might be in part down to him just not wanting to do that, certainly now it's become a celebrated record I could imagine him playing the last set out on one leg losing it 6-0 rather than scratch during a match. I guess not starting the WTF final "didn't count" in his head.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by bogbrush on Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:12 pm

Interesting thing I just pinched off 606, a quoted report from a Uncle Toni (I don't have the source).

"Last year at this time I had the opportunity to exchange anecdotes and impressions with Roger Federer's manager Tony Godsick and his wife Mary Jo Fernandez. His children, good friends of ours, were at the Rafa Nadal Academy and we went out to dinner together.

Whenever I have an occasion I like to investigate and try to discover what things people do or have done with professional success that distinguishes them from the others. And that's what happened to Tony that night about the Swiss player. I was surprised by what he told me. Contrary to what I had deduced, Roger is not a very disciplined or very methodical player. Apparently he does not take care of his food and his rest routines.

He also told me that at one point he had offered to give him the statistics and descriptive data we have today thanks to the technologies, and Federer flatly rejected it. He argued that he likes a more impromptu game and that he did not want to be encrusted by data that predisposed him on what he had to do. What the manager asserted and emphasized, however, was that for Roger tennis is his life, his obsession, the only thing that occupies his thinking. I guess he exaggerated that last one. I imagine that his children and his family also occupy him."

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:57 pm

bogbrush wrote:Interesting thing I just pinched off 606, a quoted report from a Uncle Toni (I don't have the source).

"Last year at this time I had the opportunity to exchange anecdotes and impressions with Roger Federer's manager Tony Godsick and his wife Mary Jo Fernandez. His children, good friends of ours, were at the Rafa Nadal Academy and we went out to dinner together.

Whenever I have an occasion I like to investigate and try to discover what things people do or have done with professional success that distinguishes them from the others. And that's what happened to Tony that night about the Swiss player. I was surprised by what he told me. Contrary to what I had deduced, Roger is not a very disciplined or very methodical player. Apparently he does not take care of his food and his rest routines.

He also told me that at one point he had offered to give him the statistics and descriptive data we have today thanks to the technologies, and Federer flatly rejected it. He argued that he likes a more impromptu game and that he did not want to be encrusted by data that predisposed him on what he had to do. What the manager asserted and emphasized, however, was that for Roger tennis is his life, his obsession, the only thing that occupies his thinking. I guess he exaggerated that last one. I imagine that his children and his family also occupy him."

Hehe, that's ma boy! Big Grin

Though, hard to imagine.


And aren't Uncle Toni and that manager Tony two different people?

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by Jahu on Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:45 pm

Yes, the one Toni SickOfGod is Fed ex-IMG agent and last 4y Fed's agent/promoter/partner on Team8 agency (has also Delpo, Dimi a few future stars), so if you want Fed for dinner, need to talk to him.

He has also looked after Monica Seles (as a 20y old trainee agent!), Haas etc. and his wife is Mary-Jo Fernandez.


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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by bogbrush on Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:51 pm

Yeah, the quote is from Toni Nadal, talking to Tony Godsick. He's the guy with the hot daughter sitting in Feds box (God, hope she's over 16.....!).

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by Jahu on Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:52 pm

Don't care for her age,  i'm not asking for her papers, she's a hoot and can be my agent.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by bogbrush on Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:46 pm

Oh Christ, she's 16 in December.

Ok, I need to go to rehab.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:22 pm

bogbrush wrote:Oh Christ, she's 16 in December.
Ok, I need to go to rehab.
No, just run around the block followed by a cold shower followed by an ice bath.




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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:25 pm

bogbrush wrote:Yeah, the quote is from Toni Nadal, talking to Tony Godsick. He's the guy with the hot daughter sitting in Feds box (God, hope she's over 16.....!).
I see!
And they have a little boy wearing RF cap, don't they?

I didn't know that's M.J. Fern. husband & children, they really don't take after her.

What's Toni doing talking to Tony about Federer...still digging trying to find "the way"....

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:30 pm

Jahu wrote:Yes, the one Toni SickOfGod is Fed ex-IMG agent and last 4y Fed's agent/promoter/partner on Team8 agency (has also Delpo, Dimi a few future stars), so if you want Fed for dinner, need to talk to him.

He has also looked after Monica Seles (as a 20y old trainee agent!), Haas etc. and his wife is Mary-Jo Fernandez.

I wouldn't mind Fed for dinner. I would have to somehow convince him to trust me and tell me all what goes on in locker rooms, who hates who etc...and why he keeps sucking up to Nadal!!!!


Actually a tennis lesson would do, too!

Fed strikes me as someone who knows nothing outside tennis world. But I do like his crazy African gene.

Shame he is Swiss, but maybe that side of him did all the hard work in honing his talent....


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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by Tenez on Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:46 pm

bogbrush wrote:Interesting thing I just pinched off 606, a quoted report from a Uncle Toni (I don't have the source).

"Last year at this time I had the opportunity to exchange anecdotes and impressions with Roger Federer's manager Tony Godsick and his wife Mary Jo Fernandez. His children, good friends of ours, were at the Rafa Nadal Academy and we went out to dinner together.

Whenever I have an occasion I like to investigate and try to discover what things people do or have done with professional success that distinguishes them from the others. And that's what happened to Tony that night about the Swiss player. I was surprised by what he told me. Contrary to what I had deduced, Roger is not a very disciplined or very methodical player. Apparently he does not take care of his food and his rest routines.

He also told me that at one point he had offered to give him the statistics and descriptive data we have today thanks to the technologies, and Federer flatly rejected it. He argued that he likes a more impromptu game and that he did not want to be encrusted by data that predisposed him on what he had to do. What the manager asserted and emphasized, however, was that for Roger tennis is his life, his obsession, the only thing that occupies his thinking. I guess he exaggerated that last one. I imagine that his children and his family also occupy him."

I had read something similar in L'Equipe...from federer.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by Jahu on Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:47 pm

bogbrush wrote:Oh Christ, she's 16 in December.

Ok, I need to go to rehab.

16 is the new 19 or 21 in USA, so leave her to me, trust the expert  Laugh

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by Jahu on Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:51 pm

... wrote:
Jahu wrote:Yes, the one Toni SickOfGod is Fed ex-IMG agent and last 4y Fed's agent/promoter/partner on Team8 agency (has also Delpo, Dimi a few future stars), so if you want Fed for dinner, need to talk to him.

He has also looked after Monica Seles (as a 20y old trainee agent!), Haas etc. and his wife is Mary-Jo Fernandez.

I wouldn't mind Fed for dinner. I would have to somehow convince him to trust me and tell me all what goes on in locker rooms, who hates who etc...and why he keeps sucking up to Nadal!!!!


Actually a tennis lesson would do, too!

Fed strikes me as someone who knows nothing outside tennis world. But I do like his crazy African gene.

Shame he is Swiss, but maybe that side of him did all the hard work in honing his talent....


Yeah you know Germanians ( incl. austrians/swiss/Švabe) hard working, cold, emotionless people, like robots. give them a job and for next 50 years no need to go check them up.

I think traveling for last 20y or so and rubbing shoulders with rich gits, I bet he can crack some jokes, could have a half a pint of shandy with him too  Laugh


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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by Jahu on Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:53 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoXUPKWoBsY

Federer's daughter jokes with Tony Godsick's son

So she has found her future business/partner already  Big Grin

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:04 pm

Jahu wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoXUPKWoBsY

Federer's daughter jokes with Tony Godsick's son

So she has found her future business/partner already  Big Grin
Cute clip, she surely is the daddy's girl with that stubborness in her.

And the boy...at first I thought he was a mini gent, then changed my mind...maybe he is a reflection of his dad, Fed's yesman...

I really hate that trait in people, syndrom of the man with the golden ring...or maybe I read too much into it all... Blush

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by bogbrush on Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:09 pm

Jahu wrote:
bogbrush wrote:Oh Christ, she's 16 in December.

Ok, I need to go to rehab.

16 is the new 19 or 21 in USA, so leave her to me, trust the expert  Laugh
Yeah, but she's 15 which is still the old jail time. 

She's all yours.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:10 pm

Jahu wrote:
... wrote:
Jahu wrote:Yes, the one Toni SickOfGod is Fed ex-IMG agent and last 4y Fed's agent/promoter/partner on Team8 agency (has also Delpo, Dimi a few future stars), so if you want Fed for dinner, need to talk to him.
He has also looked after Monica Seles (as a 20y old trainee agent!), Haas etc. and his wife is Mary-Jo Fernandez.
I wouldn't mind Fed for dinner. I would have to somehow convince him to trust me and tell me all what goes on in locker rooms, who hates who etc...and why he keeps sucking up to Nadal!!!!Actually a tennis lesson would do, too!
Fed strikes me as someone who knows nothing outside tennis world. But I do like his crazy African gene.
Shame he is Swiss, but maybe that side of him did all the hard work in honing his talent....
Yeah you know Germanians ( incl. austrians/swiss/Švabe) hard working, cold, emotionless people, like robots. give them a job and for next 50 years no need to go check them up.
I dunno.
They produced best composers: Beethoven, Bach, Schumman, Schubert, Lizst, Mozart (austrians are the same as germans), I think their biggest weakness is that they are dead boring.
Jahu wrote:
I think traveling for last 20y or so and rubbing shoulders with rich gits, I bet he can crack some jokes, could have a half a pint of shandy with him too  Laugh
He is certainly a more rounded pebble as a result of all that, but he is still a pebble.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by Jahu on Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:11 pm

... wrote:
Jahu wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoXUPKWoBsY

Federer's daughter jokes with Tony Godsick's son

So she has found her future business/partner already  Big Grin
Cute clip, she surely is the daddy's girl with that stubborness in her.

And the boy...at first I thought he was a mini gent, then changed my mind...maybe he is a reflection of his dad, Fed's yesman...

I really hate that trait in people, syndrom of the man with the golden ring...or maybe I read too much into it all... Blush

Guess gene 2 gene hereditary stuff.

Ye stop reading deeply, superficial is best.

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by Jahu on Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:12 pm

bogbrush wrote:
Jahu wrote:
bogbrush wrote:Oh Christ, she's 16 in December.

Ok, I need to go to rehab.

16 is the new 19 or 21 in USA, so leave her to me, trust the expert  Laugh
Yeah, but she's 15 which is still the old jail time. 

She's all yours.

I'll send you a x-mass card then with pic of her bday, just so you know I have waited  Big Grin

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by bogbrush on Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:13 pm

Complete Perv.


And you're even worse Cool

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by Jahu on Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:19 pm

ffs i just wanted to up my image here and show I can control myself Laugh

nitb, I know you remember it when I was in Basel Open in 2011 and went and had that cake at Manor at your recommendation (just so others here know that us 2 rub shoulders long ago  Laugh) so if your daddy gives you permission and your passport which I'm sure he hides it from you, you're welcome to come this year too  Big Grin

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by summerblues on Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:18 am

Basel Open 2011?  You two do go back a long way!


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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by summerblues on Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:32 am

DECIMA wrote:Which comment exactly are you being critical of here?
I was not being critical of anything.  I am just trying to figure out why some people (you or Tenez, for example) are so invested in talking about injuries.  And I am guessing that for you it matters because, at some level, you care about the player rather than the performance.  And the way you see it, a loss caused by an injury does not reflect on a player as negatively as a loss caused by poor form.  So it becomes critical to assess whether or not a poor performance is or is not caused by an injury.

I would further suggest that it leads you both to try to twist reality a little, but that is beside the point smiley

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Re: How long can this go on?

Post by DECIMA on Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:15 am

summerblues wrote:And the way you see it, a loss caused by an injury does not reflect on a player as negatively as a loss caused by poor form.  So it becomes critical to assess whether or not a poor performance is or is not caused by an injury.
Yep, and I think that's perfectly reasonable.
(Another more nuanced point on this: it is actually difficult at times to tell the exact level of a match being played when watching. I think I have pretty good judgement- but it is certainly very subjective. If there's any unexpected result- could be a shock in the result itself or just more one sided scoreline than expected- why? Did the loser play below his usual level, or did the winner play above his? It's complicated to tell. But if a player is clearly impeded- let's take Federer back injury vs Nadal in IW2013, then I think it's more clear that there was a 'poor performance' from the loser.)
Edit: Just realised that this line of thinking could be misused by basing an injury diagnosis on an unexpectedly poor result itself. That's something Tenez has openly done, but I try not to. I believe there are around 5 matches in Slams Nadal has lost throughout his career that were significantly impeded by injury- and all 5 of these have evidence of something more than a 'normal healthy' loss- so either I've been fooled by him faking or he's genuinely injured.  


summerblues wrote:
I would further suggest that it leads you both to try to twist reality a little, but that is beside the point smiley
OK, let me ask you something, I know you like Tenez but just answer as you see it:
Do you think it's the same to say that 'in my mind a fit Federer never loses' (quote from yesterday) and that every Grand Slam loss Federer has had since 2006 was because Federer was impeded in some way (quote from a few years ago) is the same level of injury excuses I give about Nadal?
As I said in first paragraph, I said around 5 matches Nadal has lost in Slams and significantly impeded due to injury. USO 2009, AO 2011, W2013, AO 2014, 5th is a few potential cases which I'll count as only one. (I also think in past decade of Slams Federer has also lost around 5 Slam matches when clearly impeded by injury, but for his age has missed less Slams than average player.) I recognise that these are all up for debate, we can't know for sure if Nadal was faking these injuries; just like we can't know for sure his time taken out due to injury was due to injury or another hidden reason. But let's not pretend that this debate is anything similar to me point blank saying every defeat Nadal has had in Slams for the past decade is because he's not fit like Tenez said.

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