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Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:57 am

noleisthebest wrote:Bottom line is Nadal is a talentless moon-baller.

Everything else here is smokescreen to try and hide that painful truth
Thanks for clearing that up NITB Hug
Insightful and in-depth cutting edge analysis as usual Winking

Is your answer Llodra then?

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by laverfan on Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:00 am

noleisthebest wrote:Don't try to brush everyone under the same carpet as usual LF, I'm not buying it...

I am not selling you anything, unlike the sales pitch that I hear about the impending doom and death of tennis. Winking

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by laverfan on Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:12 am

noleisthebest wrote:Anyway, I thought this was a really good thread to get into properly seeing how today's game has changed and you have chose two good examples. Llodra, plays traditional tennis, Novak plays modern tennis. They have learned to play in different eras.

There were 9600 baud terminals using Hayes AT command set, then came X.25/ISDN, then came DSL and ADSL and PON and EPON and now GPON. See broadband has evolved, as has Tennis, akin to Darwinian evolution. You evolve as a player, which is what Federer did, but Llodra and Mahut prefer existence as a Dodo rather than evolve, and the evolution is going to leave them behind.

noleisthebest wrote:If you stuck them both of grass court with wooden racquets Llodra would probably beat Nole, but I am confident Nole could revert back to those conditions over a period of time and be just as good as he is now and beat Llodra. It's the opposite of what Federer did when he had to adjust his pre-Nadal game to post-Annacone one. I can see that Kohlschreiber has been able to do a bit of that as well, and Roddick tried, too.

And Laver and Pancho would beat anyone of the modern era - Federer, Borg, McEnroe, Vilas, Lendl, et al., who dared pick up a 7-inch wooden round with natural gut.

noleisthebest wrote:Llodra and Mahut are sticking to their guns, and it's nice to see as they are a dying breed.

So were dinosaurs and they did not learn to play Tennis. Winking

noleisthebest wrote:Can you see where my "death of tennis" is coming from?

There is no such thing as 'death'. According to one branch of many human religions, the soul is immutable, the bodies are left behind, and re-incarnation and re-birth happen in a cycle.

You can listen to Vinyl and be nostalgic, or get on the Internet and download mp3s on a fifth generation iPod/iPhone/iPad/i<something> and take your music. With WiFi and LTE, you can even watch Tennis streams from TennisTV.com in the Tube. Make your choices. Winking


Last edited by laverfan on Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:14 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Edited for 'quoting'.)

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by ... on Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:46 am

laverfan wrote:

You can listen to Vinyl and be nostalgic, or get on the Internet and download mp3s on a fifth generation iPod/iPhone/iPad/i and take your music. With WiFi and LTE, you can even watch Tennis streams from TennisTV.com in the Tube. Make your choices.

Where's the spirit LF...fight for what you love!

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by laverfan on Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:21 am

noleisthebest wrote:
laverfan wrote:

You can listen to Vinyl and be nostalgic, or get on the Internet and download mp3s on a fifth generation iPod/iPhone/iPad/i and take your music. With WiFi and LTE, you can even watch Tennis streams from TennisTV.com in the Tube. Make your choices.

Where's the spirit LF...fight for what you love!

The love for Vinyl and mp3s is not mutually exclusive. I still maintain Vinyl and enjoy two-channel stereo.

I can watch a 5:53 (at 3am) or a 1:10 match (at 11pm). I am happy with both. Different strokes for different folks. I do not want to be extinct like dinosaurs, I want to enjoy Tennis till my last breath, however it may evolve. Winking

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by ... on Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:49 am

Why settle for second best for the sake of it?

I noticed I actually stopped watching a lot of matches. I did not watch the AO final (except the last few points), neither did I see the semi-final.
I didn't watch last two years' USO finals, and I saw very little of this year's.
So, as far as I'm concerned, it's not good news.
I do watch smaller tournaments just to see a bit of all-court tennis which is almost extinct in the last week of slams.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:04 am

noleisthebest wrote:Why settle for second best for the sake of it?
Well different people have different opinions and viewpoints on tennis. What is second best for you, might be the best/ third best for someone else.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:21 am

Anyway, back on topic, to answer this question you have to follow 2 very simple steps:

a) Establish what you think makes someone 'talented', or how someone can have 'more talent' than another player. This is of course subjective, to the point where you feel that it is objective. Everyone has their own theory.

b) Having established this, you can now use your definition to compare two players, and come to a conclusion on who is more talented (or if they are equally talented).

Using this, you could answer:
Llodra vs Djokovic
Nadal vs Karlovic
Isner vs Murray



Last edited by Amritia3ee on Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:41 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by ... on Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:32 am

Amri,

go and revise.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:34 am

noleisthebest wrote:Amri,

go and revise.
Cut out the authoritarian tone, you're not my boss Thumbs Up

Clearly you won't answer my questions, if you don't want to then don't. This is my thread, I can't force you to contribute. If you can't then you don't have to.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by ... on Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:45 am

Amritia3ee wrote: This is my thread, I can't force you to contribute. If you can't then you don't have to.

you can still revise, regardless!

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:46 am

noleisthebest wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote: This is my thread, I can't force you to contribute. If you can't then you don't have to.

you can still revise, regardless!
For what exactly??

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by ... on Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:49 am

A few of us have made a great effort to explain what we think in detail, but you keep choosing to ignore what is said there, because it does not suit look pretty on your mantelpiece.
Anyway, am anjoying myself listening to some old songs with red wine, chill out Amri, it's only tennis and we all love it (more or less Winking )

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:54 am

noleisthebest wrote:A few of us have made a great effort to explain what we think in detail, but you keep choosing to ignore what is said there, because it does not suit look pretty on your mantelpiece.
No, not at all.
I've agreed with a lot of what you have said, well I can understand how you explain your point of view.

However you haven't really answered the question in the OP, it's not 'what is talent' or 'how does the modern game compare to the traditional game.' These may be factors in answering the question, but the main point is I'm comparing different players.
Of course for some reason you don't want to do that, instead you keep on going on about other factors (which I admit are related, but it doesn't mask the fact you're avoiding the main point).

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by ... on Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:03 am

here's a nice song for your Amri. PURE TALENT!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmuaIcin-YM&feature=fvwrel

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:06 am

noleisthebest wrote:here's a nice song for your Amri. PURE TALENT!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmuaIcin-YM&feature=fvwrel
Thanks for the link, perhaps ROTLA can set up a 'music' part of the forum Thumbs Up

Bit out of place here though, talking about beating about the bush Whistle

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by ... on Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:13 am

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/rde0815l.jpg

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:24 am

noleisthebest wrote:http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/rde0815l.jpg
Is that your new motto, or are you scared to answer Winking

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Tenez on Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:24 am

Amri, Have you been banned from v2?

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:25 am

I am 'It Must Be Love.'

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:27 am

Everyone knows its me, I sign off as Amritia:
http://www.606v2.com/t34993-how-much-of-tennis-is-played-in-the-mind

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:31 am

Anyway to bring this thread back on topic:
Amritia3ee wrote:To answer this question you have to follow 2 very simple steps:

a) Establish what you think makes someone 'talented', or how someone can have 'more talent' than another player. This is of course subjective, to the point where you feel that it is objective. Everyone has their own theory.

b) Having established this, you can now use your definition to compare two players, and come to a conclusion on who is more talented (or if they are equally talented).

Using this, you could answer:
Llodra vs Djokovic
Nadal vs Karlovic
Isner vs Murray


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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by laverfan on Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:07 pm

Talent, as measured by results, shows a big gap between the two.

Talent, as a subjective yard-stick, is rather ambiguous.

Llodra's Report Card...

Llodra has flair, is aggressive, has an SHBH, plays S&V, is a dying species heading towards extinction. Gets low marks for adaptibility and hence is wasting whatever innate talent he might subjectively have.

Djokovic's Report Card...

Djokovic has flair, is aggressive, has a DHBH, plays S&V sporadically, has shown maturity, and a stellar year in 2011. Has shown some adaptability to changing landscape of Tennis. Someone on another forum mentioned inat which needs an explanation (NITB??), but roughly translates as pride for a native English speaker like me. His innate Tennis talent (whatever it's measurement might be) has been honed, for him to be in Top 4. He may not be able to handle windy conditions which he may one day.

Disclaimer: I have no emotional attachement to either player.

Djokovic tilts the talent balance in his favour. Winking

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by ... on Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:25 pm

laverfan wrote: Someone on another forum mentioned inat which needs an explanation (NITB??), but roughly translates as pride for a native English speaker like me.

Ill-educated masses fester everywhere LF.
Inat is a Turkish - originated word which translates not to pride but defiance.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Tenez on Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:31 pm

laverfan wrote:
Disclaimer: I have no emotional attachement to either player.

A bit like an oyster.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by laverfan on Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:24 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
laverfan wrote: Someone on another forum mentioned inat which needs an explanation (NITB??), but roughly translates as pride for a native English speaker like me.

Ill-educated masses fester everywhere LF.
Inat is a Turkish - originated word which translates not to pride but defiance.


n. obstinacy, stubbornness, persistence, pertinacity, contumacy, doggedness, spite, tenacity, waywardness

adj. intransigent


Ah, you are much closer than I was. A proper dictionary does help. Thumbs Up

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by laverfan on Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:28 pm

Tenez wrote:
laverfan wrote:
Disclaimer: I have no emotional attachement to either player.

A bit like an oyster.

Producing a pearl (of wisdom) is very easy for the talented, T. Laugh


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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by ... on Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:33 pm

laverfan wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
laverfan wrote: Someone on another forum mentioned inat which needs an explanation (NITB??), but roughly translates as pride for a native English speaker like me.

Ill-educated masses fester everywhere LF.
Inat is a Turkish - originated word which translates not to pride but defiance.


n. obstinacy, stubbornness, persistence, pertinacity, contumacy, doggedness, spite, tenacity, waywardness

adj. intransigent


Ah, you are much closer than I was. A proper dictionary does help.

If you looked the word up in Turkish dictionary, then it probably has a slightly different meaning.
Regardless, it does not capture Novak at all. Not to this eye, at least .

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Tenez on Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:12 am

laverfan wrote:
Tenez wrote:
laverfan wrote:
Disclaimer: I have no emotional attachement to either player.

A bit like an oyster.

Producing a pearl (of wisdom) is very easy for the talented, T.


Only the fool thinks he is wise. The wise man knows he is a fool!

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by sphairistike on Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:16 am

Perfect answer to an LF post!

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:41 am

Sphair, why don't you contribute on the topic Winking
What do you think?
Who is more talented out of Karlovic and Nadal?

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:57 am

Tenez, you are online!
What are your views on this topic, would be good to know Winking
(Although I probably won't agree with you lol)

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by ... on Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:00 am

Amritia3ee wrote:Tenez, you are online!
What are your views on this topic, would be good to know
(Although I probably won't agree with you lol)

If you take the Nadal-tinted glasses off you may be able to see those views.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:05 am

noleisthebest wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:Tenez, you are online!
What are your views on this topic, would be good to know
(Although I probably won't agree with you lol)

If you take the Nadal-tinted glasses off you may be able to see those views.
If he takes his anti-Nadal tinted glasses off he may be able to see the truth Cool

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:52 pm

Well, I somehow decided to read some posts before I posted mine. Good posts everyone.

Let me get in now.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:03 pm

Amritia3ee wrote: Personally I think it's Djokovic, his success and achievements are far superior than Llodra's, and this is a big factor for me.

Well, this is a parameter to measure talent then one doesn't even need to watch a single tennis match to conclude who has more talent. See and stats and its done, isn't it? Its important to look beyond the number of silverware one has.




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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Tenez on Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:09 pm

That's their problem. They are mixing everything up.

It's like saying Federer's better record (17 slams) means he runs faster and has more stamina than Nadal and Djokovic combined (16 slams).

Anything can come up of stats if you cannot analyse them.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:09 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Tennis at its heart is a simple game, a game of weapons: the player who wins a point using least shots is the most talented.
The more you beat about the bush, the fewer weapons you have.

In its original form, tennis shots used to be an exclusive weapon,in the wooden racquets era, there was no place to hide on a grass court.

Now, with light frames and strong/superfit bodies it's possible to hide on the base line. Just look at Nadal.

Stick them all on the grass court with a wooden racquet and you'll get a very good idea of each player's talent.

A real life comparison is comparing students: talented ones will need a lot less time to pass the exam than the untalented ones who will in the end achieve the exam passing result but with days and days of grafting .

If you give them both the same amount of time (not endless scenario) you'll easily see who is the talented one.

Good point and good example in real life.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Tenez on Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:27 pm

Yes NITB makes a good point but there is also those who are naturally talented at running (pace and stamina), footwork etc...who would prefer contain their opponents weapons untill they lose their edge.

A bit like a mangoose v a Cobra. A cobra's "weapon" is feared by many more species than the mangoose but every animal has weak spot to exploit and the mangoose can absorb the cobra's "talent" and inject some of its own.


Having said that I do not believe we can trust those innate physical talent nowadays cause unless eye/hand coordination and technique, those can really be increase by the pharmaceutical science. Sure science can also increase reflexes and coordination but certainly not to the extend of increase the muscle strength and stamina.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:29 pm

Tenez wrote:That's their problem. They are mixing everything up.

It's like saying Federer's better record (17 slams) means he runs faster and has more stamina than Nadal and Djokovic combined (16 slams).

Anything can come up of stats if you cannot analyse them.

Analyzing isn't easy, Tenez. Its far FAR easier to look at the stats and draw conclusions.

The dynamics of the game has changed so much that though the game looks like tennis, but now it requires totally different set of skills to win. Comparing who is more talented across players of different generations who learnt the game game differently is is impossible to say. I'm not sure why Amritia had to compare the talent of Llodra and Djokovic. They are players of different generations, play with different racquets and strings. In fact they both play a completely different game if you know what I mean.

Yes everyone is free to play with whatever racquets and strings available. But its almost impossible for players to start using a totally different thing. Leave pros, even players like me find it almost impossible to change to a completely different racquet from what I've been playing all these years. Poor adaptability? smiley . It took me many many years to get to playing with what I play, perhaps it would take me just as many if it gets changed.

Technology improves all the time and if 4-5 years down the line, new strings and much powerful racquets come, it will be impossible for these Nadals and Djokovics and Murrays to start playing with those and be successful. This is what is the case with Llodra and most players of his time.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:37 pm

Tenez wrote:Yes NITB makes a good point but there is also those who are naturally talented at running (pace and stamina), footwork etc...who would prefer contain their opponents weapons untill they lose their edge.

A bit like a mangoose v a Cobra. A cobra's "weapon" is feared by many more species than the mangoose but every animal has weak spot to exploit and the mangoose can absorb the cobra's "talent" and inject some of its own.


Having said that I do not believe we can trust those innate physical talent nowadays cause unless eye/hand coordination and technique, those can really be increase by the pharmaceutical science. Sure science can also increase reflexes and coordination but certainly not to the extend of increase the muscle strength and stamina.

There are many ways of winning. Development in science has aided some of those more than the others. Can we define talent with those? Its hard for me. I rather use the word skill.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by laverfan on Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:34 am

Tenez wrote:
laverfan wrote:
Tenez wrote:
laverfan wrote:
Disclaimer: I have no emotional attachement to either player.

A bit like an oyster.

Producing a pearl (of wisdom) is very easy for the talented, T.


Only the fool thinks he is wise. The wise man knows he is a fool!

The wise man knows he is a fool and is capable of thinking that he is wise.

Does the wise man know that Federer is talented or does the fool think Federer is talented? Somersault

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by legendkillar on Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:19 am

Are we not trying to quantify what is talent and how is should be measured? Is there a greater skill being able to play at the net and volley than say hitting a FH on the run?

Bringing the wooden racquet tells all argument is irrelevant. Would Llodra play better with a wooden racquet compared to Djokovic? Hell no. The days of wooden racquets required no pace on the ball from the racquet compared with today's conditions and technology. The days of wooden racquets and fast courts virtually made the deuce court the baseline of it's day.

Llodra has a better volley and slice. He doesn't have a better FH or BH than Djokovic. One cancels out the other and we would be here all day drawing straws.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Tenez on Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:40 am

legendkillar wrote:
Llodra has a better volley and slice. He doesn't have a better FH or BH than Djokovic. One cancels out the other and we would be here all day drawing straws.

That is the key when comparing 2 technologies. Llodra plays with natural guts whereas Djoko plays with modern synthetic strings and that has a huge impact on the FH and ground shots in general. To hit a pacy FH with natural strings, you have no choice but to take a higher risk with synth gut. Therefore it is to an extend comparing the wooden racquet game versus larger graphite racquet. None of those fancy powerful shots from 4m behind the baseline and 2m outside the trameline (shots where Nadal, Murray and Djoko thrive on) would be possible, or as easy, with nat gut. Nat gut can be pacy but needs to be hit flatter and much closer to the net, while judging a risky length.

Remember when Lendl and Pete were doing those on-the-run DTL FHs they were known as great shots whereas now players can do it right and left. In fact they do not want to put their opponent too much outside the court as it gives them extra options. Murray, Djoko and Nadal become a real force when they are 2m outside the court, not when they are occuying the center.

That's the great difference strings can make....if you also have the fitness that goes with it. This is why talent (which is in essence the consistency of hitting a risky (flat) shot) is less and less of a factor.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Tenez on Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:53 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-48KgdX-YTQ

Look at 3mn15the whole point, even on slow mo. You see the difference between a LLodra having to hit the ball flatter to get pace whereas a similar pace can now be done with spin thanks to new strings. Tsip adds more security on his shots. Doesn't mean the ball has to be 3m over the net but even closer to the net, the spin gives it an added safety without losing pace. Federer and djoko are good at adding spin for security without going too high over the net but those shots woudl be much riskier with nat gut as the ball doesn't stick as much to the string.

Anyone playing table tennis with a sticky bat as opposed to a non sticky bat can see the obvious difference.


Last edited by Tenez on Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:55 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by legendkillar on Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:55 am

That's the great difference strings can make....if you also have the fitness that goes with it. This is why talent (which is in essence the consistency of hitting a risky (flat) shot) is less and less of a factor.

I think we are discounting the skill in timing a running FH DTL for example.

Strings certainly have played their part, but the courts have changed too. When playing with natural gut on a fast court meant that there was more pop off the court than there was the racquet. Dare I say it that today's court require a ball basher to get the best out of it. I would say yes the spin generated on today's racquets are ridiculous, but somehow is the requirement if you are to successful. Racquet weights play a part too. Rafter had a 350G racquet!! Essentially it points to the fact that having a heavier frame requires more touch from the player. Take Federer. His 90in racquet weighs 305G I think, that is quite heavy for such a small racquet. Murray has a 330G racquet. Nadal used to use a 295G racquet and Djokovic is 312G. Even these little details tell us something smiley

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Tenez on Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:12 am

legendkillar wrote:
That's the great difference strings can make....if you also have the fitness that goes with it. This is why talent (which is in essence the consistency of hitting a risky (flat) shot) is less and less of a factor.

I think we are discounting the skill in timing a running FH DTL for example.

That is the key where new strings help. The timing is much easier with added spin. With natural guts, you have no choice butto hit the ball more "frankly", that is flatter and impeccable timing is required. When you spin teh ball can go more or less up and more or less long short and that gives that security.

And, imo, in tennis, like in many sport, timing is talent.

Just look at the USO final this year, did Djoko and Murray had to show great timing skills? Do you think Pete coudl time the ball well after a 50shot rally? He certainly had to make sure rallies would not have 50 shots in it cause he knew he would not be able to time it very well by the end of a long rally and it woudl also affect his timing the next 3 shots. Not nowadays though! And for a good reason.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:11 am

legendkillar wrote:Are we not trying to quantify what is talent and how is should be measured? Is there a greater skill being able to play at the net and volley than say hitting a FH on the run?

Bringing the wooden racquet tells all argument is irrelevant. Would Llodra play better with a wooden racquet compared to Djokovic? Hell no. The days of wooden racquets required no pace on the ball from the racquet compared with today's conditions and technology. The days of wooden racquets and fast courts virtually made the deuce court the baseline of it's day.

Llodra has a better volley and slice. He doesn't have a better FH or BH than Djokovic. One cancels out the other and we would be here all day drawing straws.
Good point LK, that was my line of thinking too Thumbs Up

I know it is difficult to precisely compare two people who come from different generations.... talent wise; but it is possible. Tenez you have said you think Llodra is more naturally talented than Djokovic, who do you think is more talented out of Karlovic and Nadal?

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by laverfan on Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:38 am

Amritia3ee wrote:... who do you think is more talented out of Karlovic and Nadal?

You are expecting a answer.... Whistle .

Of course it is Karlovic, he plays with an SHBH which is the best measure of talent. He has also beaten Federer on a fast Cincy 2008 court (ah I forgot about the GF/mono Doh).

Karlovic has never beaten Nadal, including the Queens 'fast' grass in 2008, the same year Nadal won W. But still Karlovic has more talent because he can still play with 11 (or 9) foot faults. Laugh

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by legendkillar on Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:49 am

Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
That's the great difference strings can make....if you also have the fitness that goes with it. This is why talent (which is in essence the consistency of hitting a risky (flat) shot) is less and less of a factor.

I think we are discounting the skill in timing a running FH DTL for example.

That is the key where new strings help. The timing is much easier with added spin. With natural guts, you have no choice butto hit the ball more "frankly", that is flatter and impeccable timing is required. When you spin teh ball can go more or less up and more or less long short and that gives that security.

And, imo, in tennis, like in many sport, timing is talent.

Just look at the USO final this year, did Djoko and Murray had to show great timing skills? Do you think Pete coudl time the ball well after a 50shot rally? He certainly had to make sure rallies would not have 50 shots in it cause he knew he would not be able to time it very well by the end of a long rally and it woudl also affect his timing the next 3 shots. Not nowadays though! And for a good reason.

I shall try and type one handed because of me stoopid cat laying by the computer.

The US Open final was a pair of cautious cats playing. Each knowing that the wind was a big factor in going deep in length. It was disappointing, but theres only so much you can do. A club player yourself would understand the limits that windy conditions can play on flatter strokes.

I think before we declare war on todays players who train themselves to be quick and fit, aren't they just products of their environment? Take Murray. The quest for greater fitness has come at a cost to his variation he had in his early days. I would say we have hit a wall in terms of the game and this generation has gotten good as it is ever going to get, but what advances lie ahead that will improve the game? Strings have made a massive difference. Put a wooden racquet in Djokovic's hand and Llodra's on today's court and Djokovic would acclimatise much easier. 80's/90's courts? Llodra.

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