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Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

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Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by Daniel on Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:48 pm

I know you're not a betting man, Boggy... but even you can join in.  Simply predict when Nadal will make his first excuse (may have already happened) and what the excuse will be.

I am going for today.  I expect mentioned

Head Bump
Bad line calls
Knees

And I also predict Nadal suddenly injured (ego damaged) and takes 3+ months out.   Peace Dove

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by DECIMA on Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:39 pm

Look, exactly the opposite-
http://www.express.co.uk/sport/tennis/827050/Wimbledon-2017-Rafael-Nadal-hits-head-Centre-Court-explains-accident
Be fair!

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by gallery play on Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:57 pm

Obviously he'll blame in on the many matches he played this year.
And rightfully so

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by Daniel on Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:14 pm

gallery play wrote:Obviously he'll blame in on the many matches he played this year.
And rightfully so

That's a legitimate excuse, but still his fault.  But you wait a few days... and we'll be hearing from his knees by phone, email and even morse code.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by gallery play on Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:22 pm

However, this must be a big blow for him. He plays for the GS record, it's pretty far away now. And it's over if Fed wins here

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by Daniel on Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:39 pm

That's clearly what he's thinking about, and although most lamos would then put him as the best, I would not.  Because 10-3 HC slams and 7-2 grass slams don't make you an all round player.  And that's what greatness is.  He'll never match Fed at 3 of the 4 slams in total wins. He's like a bad smell on clay, but he will be made to go away by age.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by Daniel on Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:43 pm

 by CAS Today at 10:21 pm

bit concerned with Rafas reply to the question "will you be here next year?' saying he will see and would not commit, perhaps the grass is still bothering his knees and he has had enough? 

His fans over at 606v2 have started... so it can't be long now.   Yeah... a 6 setter and earlier proclaiming Nadal to be the champ.  One loss... and boom!  It's his knees.  Go away.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by bogbrush on Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:15 pm

Arghh what a timeto have my internet switched.

My money is on the matches now and we'll b hearing about knees in a few weeks.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by bogbrush on Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:16 pm

Daniel wrote:
 by CAS Today at 10:21 pm

bit concerned with Rafas reply to the question "will you be here next year?' saying he will see and would not commit, perhaps the grass is still bothering his knees and he has had enough? 

His fans over at 606v2 have started... so it can't be long now.   Yeah... a 6 setter and earlier proclaiming Nadal to be the champ.  One loss... and boom!  It's his knees.  Go away.
Think I might go and lurk there for a bit......

Edit: no point, it's absolutely dead over there. 


Last edited by bogbrush on Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by Daniel on Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:27 pm

It's dead.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by bogbrush on Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:29 pm

You just got there while I was editing.

Incredible, Wimbledon in full swing and it's silent. Shows what putting a numbskull on moderating can do.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by bogbrush on Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:36 pm

Seriously, he lost because he didn't do it on the big points. Look at it this way;

He won 198 points vs 191
He only served 177 against 212 received, accentuating the points dominance.
He converted 2/16 bps vs Mullers 3/8

Played poorly in the pressure situations.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by Slippy on Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:54 pm

Daniel wrote:
 by CAS Today at 10:21 pm

bit concerned with Rafas reply to the question "will you be here next year?' saying he will see and would not commit, perhaps the grass is still bothering his knees and he has had enough? 

His fans over at 606v2 have started... so it can't be long now.   Yeah... a 6 setter and earlier proclaiming Nadal to be the champ.  One loss... and boom!  It's his knees.  Go away.
CAS is a Federer fan.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by Daniel on Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:34 am

It's still an excuse for Nadal - so clearly he is both. Or in any case, in error.  I don't like this knee crap.  But fair enough if he/she isn't the typical knee injury excuser.  There are plenty.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by DECIMA on Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:43 am

CAS is a Federer fan.

And Daniel, you have berated Tenez before for making negative statements without evidence; I saw Nadal press conference on sky sports news and BBC; he said Muller deserved to win and played better in the 5th set. Never mentioned an injury- in fact the reporter asked about him banging his head to set up him for an excuse, and he said no it was nothing.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by Daniel on Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:03 am

He doesn't always in post match.  It's days later where he does a U turn.  Like Rosol.  If he does, I'll post it up like I did with Rosol.  He does usually blame his knees almost immediately though.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by Daniel on Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:21 am

Also, I am still seeing doublespeak.  Half assed bullshit >

It’s difficult to come back after being down two sets against a player like him. I think I did well,” he added. "I had good chances in the fifth set, but he had more chances than me. So maybe he deserved it a little more than me.”

It's never ever "He deserved".  Even when he has time to fabricate a response. That doesn't read well at all... it's just mealymouthed crap. "He created more chances and deserved to win"  Is a whole lot different to "He had more chances, so maybe he deserved it a little more"  LOL.  

I can see through this guy so easily.  Here's more:

 I think I didn't play my best the first two sets

It probably wasn’t my best match,


That isn't humble.  It's fake.  He can put in as many "Muller played great" quotes as he likes... but that doesn't change the between the lines meaning.  And that's now.  A few more days or weeks and he'll be worse.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by DECIMA on Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:34 am

If he feels he didn't play his best, he's entitled to say that. If he thinks, Muller maybe deserved it more than him because he had more chances in the 5th set, he's also entitled to say that.
Daniel wrote:He can put in as many "Muller played great" quotes as he likes
Hmm, I have a feeling if Federer lost to someone and then say 'they played great' in the press conference right after a gutting loss, you would be saying it's evidence he gives credit to his opponent, not saying 'he can say it as much as he likes but...'

If you want I can find quotes from other players after losing where they also say they didn't play their best; I think you are being harsh given he's had a press conference literally right after a tough loss.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by Daniel on Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:41 am

Not saying he's perfect either... but it's the frequency Nadal does this that annoys me. And that's before the MYRIAD of excuses he's used over the years. Nadal is the very worst. He's done it right there above.  Again.   Doh Picking quotes is all dandy - but I didn't pick one. I used his latest.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:59 am

Not sure Nadal will come out with excuses. Muller played an absolute blinder. Held serve at times with relative ease. Kept forcing Nadal out of court and didn't give him the chance to dominate from the baseline.

Nadal you could see was nervous at the business end of the 5th coughing up some UE's.

I know Daniel you are rarely if at all picked up for things you say which are good and I am in agreement with you when you referenced the mental scars Nadal has on grass. Case in point yesterday. Even if conditions are more favourable, he still doesn't look comfortable on the surface.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by Daniel on Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:19 pm

Thanks smiley  Well, losing four times in a row to rank 100s is sure to completely smash your confidence.  It's worse when you don't have favourable surfaces in your sport, though, to regain some confidence... as Stephen Hendry found out in snooker.  He suffered some nasty defeats starting 1997 and was never the same player.  He won just one major after 96 - winning 17 before that. 

See, I do agree that grass is slower now and easier for defenders... that much is obvious.  But it isn't clay or anywhere near it.  I think sometimes people are guilty of wanting to exaggerate it so that if a defender wins, they can blame that.  Also, I'm tired of players LETTING Nadal stand that far back; through fear of being booed or called a bad sportsman, they do no underarms or short serves.  They are extremely effective - esp when your opponent is that far back on grass.  Nadal started to have a lot more success on return when he stood there - but Muller was unwilling to just do what was necessary.  Nadal wouldn't hesitate to if roles reversed. And this isn't cheating. So we can all go on about defenders standing far back on return, but grass players aren't punishing them for doing it. It isn't the grass's fault that players are brainless and gutless.

Nadal has had three of the easiest draws I've seen this year. But even with this peach (up until the QF), he couldn't go far on grass. If he gets any dangerous grass player next year, he's going out early again.  It's clear now what age has done to him - the same as to anyone.  It's taken away that edge. That extra step.  And he has no B game or weapon or serve to bridge the gap.  Federer has lost a step too, and suffers physically a lot more.  His fine tuning isn't perfect like it used to be - but he is a complete player and still competing at the top levels on faster surfaces. Even at 35!  Nadal simply isn't that breed.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:14 pm

Looking at Muller's serving map in the first 2 sets. Was hanging out his serves wide. Sets 3 and 4 he started serving more to the middle. In the 5th went back to the wide serves and got his just rewards.

What impressed me most about Muller was how comfortable he looked between points and on the change of ends. How he didn't over-think situations when he was 15-30 or 30-30 on serve. Very composed.

When you look at Nadal's conquerers at Wimbledon since 2012. Rosol, Darcis, Kyrgios, Brown and Muller. Not only did they disrupt Nadal's rhythm, but played their own game and stuck to it. You cite age as one of the biggest factors in his decline, I think mentally he doesn't believe he can win on grass again. Put him on a clay court and he looks near invincible. Harcourt take your pick depending on the speed of the court. Grass, he just doesn't look like he has a clue anymore. The mental element of the game is so underplayed and misunderstood.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by bogbrush on Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:25 pm

Watching Rafa yesterday when Muller serve volleyed and swallowed up his returnes I thought on about how he'd have ever got on in the 90's against Pete. I couldn't imagine him getting a set no matter how often the played. 

To be fair, many players didn't but Sampras is being airbrushed from the discussions of all the greats I feel. At his peak he was unplayable here. It's also a reason why I rate Henman highly when playing forecourt tennis, he gave Sampras a match.

It really is a different tournament. That might be for the good as 90's Wimbledon was sometimes close to unwatchable, but nonetheless it just shows how these records and ratings can be at the whim of the tournament hosts.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:37 pm

Pete had the ultimate power game for grass without a doubt. I find him to be totally underrated on grass. Even his FH DTL was as devastating as the serve. The 1999 final is still seen as the pinnacle of grass court tennis perfection and for one agree. It's a level on that surface not surpassed.

Nadal's movement on grass has suffered massively since 2011. Just looks like a baby giraffe on ice. As Daniel said, despite the grass being slower, it's still a tricky surface for some.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by Daniel on Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:09 pm

Sampras 90s v Nadal is a no contest.  Nadal could do what he liked and it wouldn't matter.

I've noticed too that Nadal struggles more v taller opponents.  They have a good serve - but I also think Nadal's high balls don't trouble them as much.

Kyrgios 6'4
Rosol 6'5
Brown 6'5
Muller 6'4
Soderling 6'4
Del Potro 6'6

I know that when I play, I find it very difficult to return high balls at my backhand.  I'm only 5'8.  But when the ball is lower, I can really dictate a point.  It matters.  Nadal's balls may be going nearer to the taller player's hitting zone?

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by Tenez on Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:39 pm

bogbrush wrote:Watching Rafa yesterday when Muller serve volleyed and swallowed up his returnes I thought on about how he'd have ever got on in the 90's against Pete. I couldn't imagine him getting a set no matter how often the played. 
Indeed. Such a different game...different sport actually.

To be fair, many players didn't but Sampras is being airbrushed from the discussions of all the greats I feel. At his peak he was unplayable here. It's also a reason why I rate Henman highly when playing forecourt tennis, he gave Sampras a match.
Funny I thought about reviving this debate with a post last weekend. I would not say that Pete was untouchable, I'd say simply that his second serve was just more solid and one is as good as one's second serve on those fast surfaces. His mind was stronger but I never considered him as having the best tennis of his generation. In a way he was the Nadal of SVing. Just solid-er than his peers. More professional like Murray, Djoko and Nadal are more professional than the others.
Goran on the day was better and Krajicek has a significant positive H2H (6 / 4) against him considering he was injured all his career. Also Kraji won almost all his encounters on neutral soil while 3 of the 4 wins from Pete were on US soil including that USO where teh crowd really saved Pete from a guaranteed defeat.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by Emancipator on Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:25 pm

Daniel wrote:It's still an excuse for Nadal - so clearly he is both. Or in any case, in error.  I don't like this knee crap.  But fair enough if he/she isn't the typical knee injury excuser.  There are plenty.

or maybe just a normal person that enjoys the sport and can appreciate more than one great player  Cool

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by Daniel on Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:13 am

 This year Nadal played two matches on Court 1: against John Millman in the first round and now against Muller. 'I'd like to come back next year to play more matches on Centre Court.
Always same players play there, they should be more equal'. 

I also missed this gem.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by Tenez on Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:53 am

he needs more support even.....

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by legendkillar on Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:39 am

Tenez wrote:
bogbrush wrote:Watching Rafa yesterday when Muller serve volleyed and swallowed up his returnes I thought on about how he'd have ever got on in the 90's against Pete. I couldn't imagine him getting a set no matter how often the played. 
Indeed. Such a different game...different sport actually.

To be fair, many players didn't but Sampras is being airbrushed from the discussions of all the greats I feel. At his peak he was unplayable here. It's also a reason why I rate Henman highly when playing forecourt tennis, he gave Sampras a match.
Funny I thought about reviving this debate with a post last weekend. I would not say that Pete was untouchable, I'd say simply that his second serve was just more solid and one is as good as one's second serve on those fast surfaces. His mind was stronger but I never considered him as having the best tennis of his generation. In a way he was the Nadal of SVing. Just solid-er than his peers. More professional like Murray, Djoko and Nadal are more professional than the others.
Goran on the day was better and Krajicek has a significant positive H2H (6 / 4) against him considering he was injured all his career. Also Kraji won almost all his encounters on neutral soil while 3 of the 4 wins from Pete were on US soil including that USO where teh crowd really saved Pete from a guaranteed defeat.

Cor. Not a fed fan mentioning H2H surely?

Nadal fans are vindicated! Winking

Goran in similar vein was like Karlovic. Big effective serve, but not the power game to match. Hence whilst I agree with what you said on the other thread about Karlovic's serve (standalone shot) say against Roddick, without doubt Karlovic has the better, but a softer groundstroke game doesn't lend itself to a big server. Pete was more than a serve because he had the power game to boot. Perfect accompaniment to his big serve. Goran had fantastic touch around the net, but mentally was shot in big game moments. Hence why in 2001 it came together for Goran when in the final it was Rafter who similarly to Goran, biggish serve and good touch around the net. A final I really enjoyed watching.

On grass Pete as his peak was untouchable. The Krajicek result is on par with Soderling FO 2009. The one anomaly in a period of surface dominance.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by Tenez on Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:50 am

Pete is over rated to me and nothing will change my mind about it cause I have observed him all his career (and even liked him more than Agassi). He was in fact a player benefiting from fast surfaces like Nadal and Djoko benefited from slow ones.

Goran actually was able to reach heights Pete never managed. First a year younger, Goran beat Pete in their first encounter at Wimbledon, cause Goran had the better serve and better ground strokes, though I agree not as good at the net and more importantly the "middle game". But  on form he did not need it.  After the difference is simple. Goran was much more emotional and less professional. never had Pete's discipline.

Pete on slow conds could not achieve anything. Remember as soon as they introduce bigger balls in 2002 he lost in the first round v George Basle. 14 GS on fast courts not a single one on clay....not even a final. I am pretty  sure had grass been as quick as in teh past Nadal woudl have had teh same kind of record......even more one sided.

I never belittled H2Hs. One just needs to analyse them correctly.You cannot compare Sod/Nadal and Kraji/Sampras as Sod never had a positive H2H v Nadal. Kraji played Pete on his surfaces and when healthy he simply was teh better player as simple as that.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by legendkillar on Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:17 am

I don't think Pete is actually overrated. I seldom ever hear him mentioned in the ever churning GOAT debates possibly for the reasons as people see his game as vastly limited. Pete for me had the perfect game for those conditions. Pete was mentally tougher than the rest of the field.

See I don't buy that the ball change and surface change in 2002 hastened his slide. Defeats to Safin, Martin, Federer and Hewitt at the Slams destroyed that mental hold he had over the field IMO. When you consider he hit the top of his mountain at Wimbledon 2000 and after that his health and form plummeted. Look at Djokovic. When you hit a career summit, complacency can set in. In the documentary on ESPN he stated that in 2001 he was looking to get out and when he won the US Open in 2002, he did just that. I think even if the conditions stayed as they did that Pete still would've encountered the same slump.

Look at Nadal won the FO and after Monday speculation is rife about whether this season could be his last. He could be asking himself if winning the FO this year will be as good as it gets for him. Federer too. Won the AO, teased a bit with his speech. Continued with the upturn of results at IW and Miami and all of sudden the possibilities are endless.

I compare Krajicek and Soderling purely because regardless of matches prior to those meetings, both were in my mind at that time fortresses at those tournaments.

Sampras and Nadal know their limitations. As players similarly before them who weren't all conquering on all surfaces. Do I think Sampras's inability to win on Clay and Nadal's inability to win on quick courts detracts from their achievements? Probably not. Their games were totally equipped to excel in a specific set of conditions.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by Tenez on Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:34 am

legendkillar wrote:I don't think Pete is actually overrated. I seldom ever hear him mentioned in the ever churning GOAT debates possibly for the reasons as people see his game as vastly limited. Pete for me had the perfect game for those conditions. Pete was mentally tougher than the rest of the field.

See I don't buy that the ball change and surface change in 2002 hastened his slide. Defeats to Safin, Martin, Federer and Hewitt at the Slams destroyed that mental hold he had over the field IMO. When you consider he hit the top of his mountain at Wimbledon 2000 and after that his health and form plummeted. Look at Djokovic. When you hit a career summit, complacency can set in. In the documentary on ESPN he stated that in 2001 he was looking to get out and when he won the US Open in 2002, he did just that. I think even if the conditions stayed as they did that Pete still would've encountered the same slump.

Look at Nadal won the FO and after Monday speculation is rife about whether this season could be his last. He could be asking himself if winning the FO this year will be as good as it gets for him. Federer too. Won the AO, teased a bit with his speech. Continued with the upturn of results at IW and Miami and all of sudden the possibilities are endless.

I compare Krajicek and Soderling purely because regardless of matches prior to those meetings, both were in my mind at that time fortresses at those tournaments.

Sampras and Nadal know their limitations. As players similarly before them who weren't all conquering on all surfaces. Do I think Sampras's inability to win on Clay and Nadal's inability to win on quick courts detracts from their achievements? Probably not. Their games were totally equipped to excel in a specific set of conditions.

We could now argue about that. He recognised he played better with age.

But when you say "stronger" mentally, I say simply more professional, less emotional. It's like teh RRunners. You may value that, I personally give it less importance. For them it's all about winning and less love for the game.

He had a huge ego and thought that with his 14 slams he would be able to retire as teh greatest ever for the rest of his life. Even retiring after a GS win was poor form for me. Like "I have nothing else to prove" or maybe "I'd rather leave while at the top so I don;t experience further comparison". This to me is again the signs of a huge ego who thinks he achieved more than he thought he could.

A true champion does not flee the battle field. He fights till someone else takes over....Agassi kept on the fight.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by legendkillar on Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:44 am

Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:I don't think Pete is actually overrated. I seldom ever hear him mentioned in the ever churning GOAT debates possibly for the reasons as people see his game as vastly limited. Pete for me had the perfect game for those conditions. Pete was mentally tougher than the rest of the field.

See I don't buy that the ball change and surface change in 2002 hastened his slide. Defeats to Safin, Martin, Federer and Hewitt at the Slams destroyed that mental hold he had over the field IMO. When you consider he hit the top of his mountain at Wimbledon 2000 and after that his health and form plummeted. Look at Djokovic. When you hit a career summit, complacency can set in. In the documentary on ESPN he stated that in 2001 he was looking to get out and when he won the US Open in 2002, he did just that. I think even if the conditions stayed as they did that Pete still would've encountered the same slump.

Look at Nadal won the FO and after Monday speculation is rife about whether this season could be his last. He could be asking himself if winning the FO this year will be as good as it gets for him. Federer too. Won the AO, teased a bit with his speech. Continued with the upturn of results at IW and Miami and all of sudden the possibilities are endless.

I compare Krajicek and Soderling purely because regardless of matches prior to those meetings, both were in my mind at that time fortresses at those tournaments.

Sampras and Nadal know their limitations. As players similarly before them who weren't all conquering on all surfaces. Do I think Sampras's inability to win on Clay and Nadal's inability to win on quick courts detracts from their achievements? Probably not. Their games were totally equipped to excel in a specific set of conditions.

We can now argue about that. he woudl himself actually as he himself recognised he played better with age.

But when you say "stronger" mentally, I say simply more professional, less emotional. It's like teh RRunners. You may value that, I personally give it less importance. For them it's all about winning and less love for the game.

He had a huge ego and thought that with his 14 slams he would be able to retire as teh greatest ever for the rest of his life. Even retiring after a GS win was poor form for me. Like "I have nothing else to prove" or maybe "I'd rather leave while at the top so I don;t experience further comparison". This to me is again the signs of a huge ego who thinks he achieved more than he thought he could.

A true champion does not flee the battle field. He fights till someone else takes over....Agassi kept on the fight.

I've always said that about Sampras and Nadal. Love winning, but not the sport as much. Daniel will love this one. When Stephen Hendry called it a day he said "I love winning. When I stopped winning, I realised I didn't want to play the game anymore" I see that in Pete when he retired. For me it stronger mentally because it channels their focus. One of my favourite quotes by a famous sportsman was "if you get fed by emotion, that's when you get beat" it's about embodying true competitiveness. I would personally feel a greater satisfaction beating a Nadal or Sampras than I would a Goran because of what it would mean to beat a competitor.

I agree again that Pete ran to the hill when he sneaked that last Slam. Without a doubt he had a huge ego. You have to to keep on winning. Like you I felt Pete short changed everyone when he retired because clearly he felt he couldn't compete against the rest and for me that's the sign of a true fighter that when past their best rise to the challenge to shorten the gulf.

That's why I respected Hewitt when he fought on despite his body being completely broken.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by Tenez on Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:17 am

well, yes, then it is a question of taste and perceptions. I will always place Borg, even McEnroe over Pete for instance.

Pete benefited a lot from that new technology and never had to face the old generation on equal terms. Agassi, Becker, Edberg benefited from that new bigger graphite frame too. Becker wins a close final in 1985 v Kevin Kuren while kevin had that old wooden racquet. Very unfair when you think about it....though I guess compensated by Boris' young age.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by gallery play on Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:50 am

True folks, all that bullshit about quitting while you're at the top. It's an ego thing. Quit with the USO trophy in your hand. Coward! Good on him for regretting his early retirement.

It takes balls to go on after ones peak. 

Think Ali

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by bogbrush on Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:13 pm

I always recall the emotions on Pete & his wife when Andy Roddick came so close to stopping 15; they both looked distraught when Federer finally won. Contrast that with Borgs reaction when Federer matched 5 in a row.

I think Federer would be disappointed to lose his record to a contemporary but I bet if some new guy passes him he'll be all smiles in the Royal box.

On the snooker theme, Steve Davis loved the game, gaining pleasure from competing and occasionally putting one over the kids.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by Tenez on Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:42 pm

Did you know that Borg sent a sms to congratulate Fed on stopping Pete from 5 in a row?

I teased Borg once by sending him a question about it through the Beeb. I can't remember what he replied exactly but denied it was to thank Fed. ....just congratulate him or something.


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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by legendkillar on Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:42 pm

Tenez wrote:well, yes, then it is a question of taste and perceptions. I will always place Borg, even McEnroe over Pete for instance.

Pete benefited a lot from that new technology and never had to face the old generation on equal terms. Agassi, Becker, Edberg benefited from that new bigger graphite frame too. Becker wins a close final in 1985 v Kevin Kuren while kevin had that old wooden racquet. Very unfair when you think about it....though I guess compensated by Boris' young age.


But many players have benefitted from technology changes or even changes in conditions. Federer has never won Wimbledon when it was fast, but I wouldn't detract his achievements there because of it.

I rank Pete higher than Mac and even Borg because for a long time he was the man. I don't particularly warm to him as a person, but can't argue with his stats.

There will always be a Sampras, Nadal, Becker that benefit from conditions or tech that further elevates their game. That trend will never buck.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by legendkillar on Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:45 pm

bogbrush wrote:I always recall the emotions on Pete & his wife when Andy Roddick came so close to stopping 15; they both looked distraught when Federer finally won. Contrast that with Borgs reaction when Federer matched 5 in a row.

I think Federer would be disappointed to lose his record to a contemporary but I bet if some new guy passes him he'll be all smiles in the Royal box.

On the snooker theme, Steve Davis loved the game, gaining pleasure from competing and occasionally putting one over the kids.


Sampras is so lukewarm. I remember the sheer reluctance in his face to accept being surpassed.

I think Federer would be the first to congratulate anyone who surpasses his tally.

BB I wonder, like me were you out of your seat when Davis won the 1997 Masters when he beat Ronnie? Have to say apart from the times when I wished at least one Jimmy White World Title, Davis winning that Masters in 1997 was the only time I actually felt raw emotion for the game.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by Tenez on Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:53 pm

legendkillar wrote:
Tenez wrote:well, yes, then it is a question of taste and perceptions. I will always place Borg, even McEnroe over Pete for instance.

Pete benefited a lot from that new technology and never had to face the old generation on equal terms. Agassi, Becker, Edberg benefited from that new bigger graphite frame too. Becker wins a close final in 1985 v Kevin Kuren while kevin had that old wooden racquet. Very unfair when you think about it....though I guess compensated by Boris' young age.


But many players have benefitted from technology changes or even changes in conditions. Federer has never won Wimbledon when it was fast, but I wouldn't detract his achievements there because of it.
I would if I knew some were better than him on fast surfaces...but him beating Pete with same technology, on Pete's garden at the age of 20 or 21 only sorts the debate once and for all. Fed went on to become a much better player than Pete in all departments, including serve to me as fed has more variety.

I rank Pete higher than Mac and even Borg because for a long time he was the man. I don't particularly warm to him as a person, but can't argue with his stats.
That's the thing, starts needs to be looked in details. Pete arrived in effect in a world where past champions coudl not compete with same weapons. That was a huge boost. Put him now in today world and I am not sure he'd have done better than the best Svers we have today....which means bugger all. Of course he will have developped a different game but that does not mean he woudl be better at it. At least we know Fed was successful on fast and slow courts and even able to adapt to the generation with new technologies.

There will always be a Sampras, Nadal, Becker that benefit from conditions or tech that further elevates their game. That trend will never buck.
But teh larger graphite frame was a big change suddenly making grass and clay play like 2 different games. Same with those new strings suddenly killing all SVers' chances of winning anything decent.

Sampras managed to be successful in a very stable era, like Nadal and Djoko.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by Tenez on Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:56 pm

legendkillar wrote:
I think Federer would be the first to congratulate anyone who surpasses his tally.
I think once you acknowledge a player's grace, it is easier to accept. Fed was a great player, one is a century, he will never mind being compared to another "one in a century" player.....in a way like Laver feels great to be in the same league as Federer.

To me Pete does not fit with them...essentially cause I don;t think he was so much better than the rest....he just was more solid. That's it.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by legendkillar on Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:17 pm

Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Tenez wrote:well, yes, then it is a question of taste and perceptions. I will always place Borg, even McEnroe over Pete for instance.

Pete benefited a lot from that new technology and never had to face the old generation on equal terms. Agassi, Becker, Edberg benefited from that new bigger graphite frame too. Becker wins a close final in 1985 v Kevin Kuren while kevin had that old wooden racquet. Very unfair when you think about it....though I guess compensated by Boris' young age.


But many players have benefitted from technology changes or even changes in conditions. Federer has never won Wimbledon when it was fast, but I wouldn't detract his achievements there because of it.
I would if I knew some were better than him on fast surfaces...but him beating Pete with same technology, on Pete's garden at the age of 20 or 21 only sorts the debate once and for all.  Fed went on to become a much better player than Pete in all departments, including serve to me as fed has more variety.

I rank Pete higher than Mac and even Borg because for a long time he was the man. I don't particularly warm to him as a person, but can't argue with his stats.
That's the thing, starts needs to be looked in details. Pete arrived in effect in a world where past champions coudl not compete with same weapons. That was a huge boost. Put him now in today world and I am not sure he'd have done better than the best Svers we have today....which means bugger all. Of course he will have developped a different game but that does not mean he woudl be better at it. At least we know Fed was successful on fast and slow courts and even able to adapt to the generation with new technologies.

There will always be a Sampras, Nadal, Becker that benefit from conditions or tech that further elevates their game. That trend will never buck.
But teh larger graphite frame was a big change suddenly making grass and clay play like 2 different games. Same with those new strings suddenly killing all SVers' chances of winning anything decent.

Sampras managed to be successful in a very stable era, like Nadal and Djoko.

1) I don't think it does sort that debate. Especially when Pete was in the twilight of his career and plus he had shin splints at that time. Those factors have to be given due consideration regardless of how impressive that result was.

2) Pete won his first Slam what in 1990 and nearly took another 3 years to win his next and kickstart that dominance. You also overlook the Tim Gullikson factor. He came on board what in 1992? No surprise that once he came on board and moulded Pete into a more Blue Collar kind of player that his career trajectory went stellar. Look at the players he lost to between the US Open maiden victory and Wimbledon. Agassi, Edberg, Courier, Ivanisevic (not considering FO given he never won it). Players he would go on and beat frequently. When you say past champions, I am assuming you mean Wilander, Lendl, McEnroe? Their decline happened much sooner prior to Pete's dominance. If Pete's time was now, how can we say for sure he wouldn't have adapted his game to match the conditions? He himself has said he would play the way he always has, however not so sure he'd have the same level of confidence in today's conditions.

3) Depends in what context you mean stable? Sampras's era similarly like Federer's and more so Djokovic seems 'weak' given the ease of domination. You could argue that since 2003 it's more difficult to be No.1 given you have to achieve lots of results on a multitude of surfaces.

I do believe you are doing Pete a dis-service for the wrong reasons. I am not saying you have to like his game or even the man himself. However his achievements are impressive. He knew how to dominate the field. You could see players crumble when he broke their serve once.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by legendkillar on Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:23 pm

Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
I think Federer would be the first to congratulate anyone who surpasses his tally.
I think once you acknowledge a player's grace, it is easier to accept. Fed was a great player, one is a century, he will never mind being compared to another "one in a century" player.....in a way like Laver feels great to be in the same league as Federer.

To me Pete does not fit with them...essentially cause I don;t think he was so much better than the rest....he just was more solid. That's it.


Depends on people's perception of the GOAT tiers or however they rank them.

Fair to say Federer sits alone. Others below have more of a unique achievement set that probably doesn't have the completeness in totality of say Federer.

There are so many what ifs, certainly around Laver and Borg on what could've been.

I am assuming you don't like Pete :p

Pete was a boring individual. I've always leaned towards Goran. Mostly because he was able to pi$$ed off for losing a point better than anyone I've seen before! And I identify with that as I am quite the bad loser.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by bogbrush on Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:28 pm

legendkillar wrote:
bogbrush wrote:I always recall the emotions on Pete & his wife when Andy Roddick came so close to stopping 15; they both looked distraught when Federer finally won. Contrast that with Borgs reaction when Federer matched 5 in a row.

I think Federer would be disappointed to lose his record to a contemporary but I bet if some new guy passes him he'll be all smiles in the Royal box.

On the snooker theme, Steve Davis loved the game, gaining pleasure from competing and occasionally putting one over the kids.


Sampras is so lukewarm. I remember the sheer reluctance in his face to accept being surpassed.

I think Federer would be the first to congratulate anyone who surpasses his tally.

BB I wonder, like me were you out of your seat when Davis won the 1997 Masters when he beat Ronnie? Have to say apart from the times when I wished at least one Jimmy White World Title, Davis winning that Masters in 1997 was the only time I actually felt raw emotion for the game.
Yes, and I think Ronnie would have been happy for him too. Funny how Steve reinvented (or revealed) himself after becoming vulnerable.

It's beautiful when something like that happens, as it would be if Fed got this 8th after soldiering on through a number of damaging defeats, because they do it for the reason we watch - love of the game.

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by naxroy on Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:34 pm

nadal didnt do his best tennis against muller, probably due to muller´s fantastic game on the day. still, nadal did a great effort and almost got it. he didnt make excuses. I think fans should apreciate good champions better

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Re: Nadal's excuse. Place your bets.

Post by Tenez on Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:43 pm

I agree we can't quite say fed came up with excuses here...I am sure he has some but essentially he knows he coudl have done better had he been a bit gutsier.

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