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Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

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Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:39 pm

There is a lot of talk on here on Federer vs Nadal; but for a change I thought we could discuss about someone a bit different.

Novak Djokovic, a 5 time Grand Slam Champion, compared to Frenchman Michael Llodra.
The question is simple, who is more talented?

Personally I think it's Djokovic, his success and achievements are far superior than Llodra's, and this is a big factor for me.
Furthermore I think Djokovic's back-hand is far superior, his forehand is also better than Llodra's, while their serves is relatively similar. Llodra's volleys are better.

So overall I believe Djokovic is more talented than Llodra.
Thoughts?

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by ... on Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:45 pm

what do you understand by "talent"?

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:20 pm

noleisthebest wrote:what do you understand by "talent"?
That's a decision that you can make, it is individual to you.
This is the defintion on Dictionary.com:
Talent= A special natural ability or aptitude (in this case for tennis)

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Tenez on Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:49 pm

I'd say on faster conditions with natural guts (he still plays with it), Llodra by a healthy margins. Just see him SV and that simply stops the discussion, he has got a better eye/hand coordination. His mental side is much weaker for now but I am sure that something he would have built had he been used to more success...again on faster balls.

Obviously on slower courts, and with this new strings, it's a completely different picture, and comparing them certainly sounds laughable.

The drive to be number 1 is above all what really separates them.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:55 pm

Interesting Tenez. Doesn't talent stay the same irrelevant of what surface you play on?, although some surfaces may accentuate and magnify certain talents.
As for technology, my take is this:
Players are allowed to use the strings/racket they like.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Tenez on Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:08 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:Interesting Tenez. Doesn't talent stay the same irrelevant of what surface you play on?, although some surfaces may accentuate and magnify certain talents.
As for technology, my take is this:
Players are allowed to use the strings/racket they like.
Talent is very much antagonist to physique. It's the subtle part of tennis and is quite fragile. This is why most talented player, I'd say 99%, will try to use their talent to shorten point and preserve their precious fitness allowing them to deliver that talent. Slow conds and new strings are however ideal to impose a physical game, that's why when talking talent as you I have to mention the conds. It's like asking you to provide your best drawing after a marathon. You could not and would need to rest before picking up a pencil or a brush. When you hit a fast ball and you take it early after the bounce or even before the bounce and have to control it, it requires a very subtle skill which will disappear quickly if yuo are breathless.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:13 pm

So, who is more talented then?
Who is a 'better painter'?

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by laverfan on Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:46 am

Qualitative measurements of talent are subjective and not universal.

Quantitative measurements of talent are subjective, but to a lesser degree. One could use number of titles as a measure. One could use career win/loss as a measure. One could use number of MPs not converted throughout a playing career.

Mozart vs Salieri or Djokovic vs Llodra, Monet vs Van Gogh or Picasso vs Dali.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:53 am

laverfan wrote:Qualitative measurements of talent are subjective and not universal.

Quantitative measurements of talent are subjective, but to a lesser degree. One could use number of titles as a measure. One could use career win/loss as a measure. One could use number of MPs not converted throughout a playing career.

Mozart vs Salieri or Djokovic vs Llodra, Monet vs Van Gogh or Picasso vs Dali.
No, only attacking players can be talented.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by ... on Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:43 am

Tennis at its heart is a simple game, a game of weapons: the player who wins a point using least shots is the most talented.
The more you beat about the bush, the fewer weapons you have.

In its original form, tennis shots used to be an exclusive weapon,in the wooden racquets era, there was no place to hide on a grass court.

Now, with light frames and strong/superfit bodies it's possible to hide on the base line. Just look at Nadal.

Stick them all on the grass court with a wooden racquet and you'll get a very good idea of each player's talent.

A real life comparison is comparing students: talented ones will need a lot less time to pass the exam than the untalented ones who will in the end achieve the exam passing result but with days and days of grafting .

If you give them both the same amount of time (not endless scenario) you'll easily see who is the talented one.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:12 am

You didn't answer my question NITB Winking
Who's more talented, Llodra or Djokovic.

Who is the kid who needs less time to revise?

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:23 am

noleisthebest wrote:Tennis at its heart is a simple game, a game of weapons: the player who wins a point using least shots is the most talented.

Btw so far this year John Isner has hit the most aces. An ace means you win the point in 1 shot, if my sources are reliable.

Certainly Llodra is far more talented than Djokovic then, as on average I suspect S&V specialist Llodra wins a point in around 2-3 shots, while Djoko takes around 4-5 shots on average.

Of course Sampras more talented than Federer too, Pete's serve is bigger than Rogers, and his volleying is also better. Overall as he is a S&V player he on average would win a point with less shots than Federer.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Tenez on Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:25 am

laverfan wrote:Qualitative measurements of talent are subjective and not universal.

Quantitative measurements of talent are subjective, but to a lesser degree. One could use number of titles as a measure. One could use career win/loss as a measure. One could use number of MPs not converted throughout a playing career.

Mozart vs Salieri or Djokovic vs Llodra, Monet vs Van Gogh or Picasso vs Dali.
?? erm

Talent has a definition and means something. It's difficult to measure cause it's almost impossible to isolate from other factors, but it's not because its difficult to measure it that it does not exist. I am sure that between Federer and Granollers we can squeeze players in the talent scale without too much difficulty. But typically its tough and titles and W/L ratio cannot give you a measuring mean, especially if conditions makes the physical side of the game way more important than talent.

The easiest way to measure talent imo is to simply see the ease at which someone can win a point and how consistent he is at doing so. On a fast surface with natural strings it's obvious to see Llodra is very talented.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:41 am

Is he more talented than Djokovic then?

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Tenez on Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:45 am

Can't you read my response? It's bloody clear! I have spelled it out!

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:47 am

Llodra then Thumbs Up (I assume)

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:50 am

NITB said its whoever can win the point in te least shots.
Sampras is more talented than Federer, as he is a S&V specialist who can win the point on average with less shots then Federer.
Or do you disagree with NITB on that definition (because it doesn't suit Roger really, well it does, but not to the extent you'd like it to).

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Tenez on Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:02 am

Amritia3ee wrote:NITB said its whoever can win the point in te least shots.
Sampras is more talented than Federer, as he is a S&V specialist who can win the point on average with less shots then Federer.
Or do you disagree with NITB on that definition (because it doesn't suit Roger really, well it does, but not to the extent you'd like it to).
Didn't Federer beat Pete when they met?

The serve is a measure of talent but it's a bit restrictive.

Watch Gasquet v Simon now...you will see a good definition of talent.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Tenez on Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:08 am

Gasquet is already suffering physically.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:09 am

Yes Federer did beat Pete, who was ageing (above 30 I think).
Anyway not that success maters, it's all about talent.

Edit: Yes, I also agree serve is a bit restrictive. The fact is although Federer has a brilliant serve, it's not as good as Karlovic, Sampras, Isner etc.
So its part in defining talet should be limited.

Don't worry Tenez, we'll keep on trying, sooner or later we'll find the definition which suits Federer best Hug


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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:14 am

Tenez, can you answer these multiple choice questions. Winking You don't have to give a reason, apologies of you have already answered some of them before:

1. Karlovic or Nadal
2. Isner or Murray
3. Llodra or Djokovic

One word answers will suffice smiley

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:21 am

NITB, if you could also give answers to the three questions above that would be great! (just a one word answer on who you think is more talented will suffice Winking)

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by ... on Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:26 am

Amritia3ee wrote:NITB, if you could also give answers to the three questions above that would be great! (just a one word answer on who you think is more talented will suffice )

Amri, I gave you the answer, but you don't want to see it.
You are not interested in hearing it because it does not suit your perception of Nadal.

Rather than try and understand the concept of talent and how it features less and less in modern game you try to make yourself look clever by asking silly questions.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Tenez on Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:27 am

Amritia3ee wrote:
Edit: Yes, I also agree serve is a bit restrictive. The fact is although Federer has a brilliant serve, it's not as good as Karlovic, Sampras, Isner etc.
I think Federer's serve is better. Already at 19 when facing Pete he served as many aces as Pete. Pete's serve woudl have been much more challenge had he faced today's players with todays strings.

Another pre-conceived idea that doesn;t hold much ground when addressed objectively.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:30 am

noleisthebest wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:NITB, if you could also give answers to the three questions above that would be great! (just a one word answer on who you think is more talented will suffice )

Amri, I gave you the answer, but you don't want to see it.
You are not interested in hearing it because it does not suit your perception of Nadal.

Rather than try and understand the concept of talent and how it features less and less in modern game you try to make yourself look clever by asking silly questions.
I agreed totally with what you said! Winking
When did I say I disagreed??

Asking questions doesn't make you sound clever, answering them does!

Sorry of you have already answered my question, but I must have missed it! Was it Djokovic or Llodra?

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Tenez on Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:31 am

Amritia3ee wrote:Tenez, can you answer these multiple choice questions. Winking You don't have to give a reason, apologies of you have already answered some of them before:

1. Karlovic or Nadal
2. Isner or Murray
3. Llodra or Djokovic

One word answers will suffice smiley

Answer them first!

And here are a few others:

Pete v Agassi
Agassi v Rios
Nadal v Nalbandian
Gasquet v Murray
Granollers v Garcia lopez
Melzer v Kholi
Nadal v your aunt

Oh and dont forget..one word and no need for explanation.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:33 am

Tenez wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:
Edit: Yes, I also agree serve is a bit restrictive. The fact is although Federer has a brilliant serve, it's not as good as Karlovic, Sampras, Isner etc.
I think Federer's serve is better. Already at 19 when facing Pete he served as many aces as Pete. Pete's serve woudl have been much more challenge had he faced today's players with todays strings.

Another pre-conceived idea that doesn;t hold much ground when addressed objectively.
Oh sorry, I wasn't being objective.
Of course Rogers serve is superior to Sampras, once they played when Sampras was above 30 and they hit the same amount of aces.
Apologies for not realising that earlier Thumbs Up

Anyway sorry to sound like Jeremy Paxman, but do answer the questions and not beat around the bush! Winking

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:35 am

Tenez wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:Tenez, can you answer these multiple choice questions. Winking You don't have to give a reason, apologies of you have already answered some of them before:

1. Karlovic or Nadal
2. Isner or Murray
3. Llodra or Djokovic

One word answers will suffice smiley

Answer them first!

And here are a few others:

Pete v Agassi
Agassi v Rios
Nadal v Nalbandian
Gasquet v Murray
Granollers v Garcia lopez
Melzer v Kholi
Nadal v your aunt

Oh and dont forget..one word and no need for explanation.
Pete
Agassi
Nadal
Murray
Garcia Lopez
Kohli
Nadal

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:37 am

Still no answer from NITB, even on the question in the OP! Sad
Tenez, I've answered your questions, now you answer mine Thumbs Up

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by ... on Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:39 am

Amritia3ee wrote:Still no answer from NITB, even on the question in the OP!
Tenez, I've answered your questions, now you answer mine

I've answered you the question, you don't want to see it.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:40 am

noleisthebest wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:Still no answer from NITB, even on the question in the OP!
Tenez, I've answered your questions, now you answer mine

I've answered you the question, you don't want to see it.
Llodra or Djokovic? Tenez said Llodra.
Apologies, I may have missed it. If that is the case, can you clear it up.
Thanks Thumbs Up

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:43 am

NITB... I've looked through your posts, still not sure.
One part of me says you think Llodra, because you like agreeing with Tenez. Also you said how talent is being taken away in the modern game, and Djokovic only succeeded in this decade.
On the other hand your username is noleisthebest... so I'm really not sure.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Tenez on Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:15 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:
Tenez wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:
Edit: Yes, I also agree serve is a bit restrictive. The fact is although Federer has a brilliant serve, it's not as good as Karlovic, Sampras, Isner etc.
I think Federer's serve is better. Already at 19 when facing Pete he served as many aces as Pete. Pete's serve woudl have been much more challenge had he faced today's players with todays strings.

Another pre-conceived idea that doesn;t hold much ground when addressed objectively.
Oh sorry, I wasn't being objective.
Of course Rogers serve is superior to Sampras, once they played when Sampras was above 30 and they hit the same amount of aces.
Apologies for not realising that earlier Thumbs Up
Glad you are coming to sense at last. You are such a humble person! We are all proud of you. Thumbs Up

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by laverfan on Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:23 pm

Tenez wrote:Talent has a definition and means something.

A Universal abstraction which depends on subjective interpretation.

Tenez wrote:It's difficult to measure cause it's almost impossible to isolate from other factors, but it's not because its difficult to measure it that it does not exist.

Like the Higgs Boson, perhaps. Laugh Does God exist?

Mozart composing at the age of 5, Nadal beating Cash at the age of 14, Federer at 17 or Federer beating Sampras at W. Winking


Tenez wrote:I am sure that between Federer and Granollers we can squeeze players in the talent scale without too much difficulty. But typically its tough and titles and W/L ratio cannot give you a measuring mean, especially if conditions makes the physical side of the game way more important than talent.

The usual physicality argument just hides a subjective interpretation of talent. A car needs an engine and wheels. Engine == Talent then Wheels == Physicality. You make a Straight 4, VR6, V6, V8, V12, W12 or whatever, the basic principles of internal combustion remain the same for all such engines.

You have a preference for a BMW 745il or an Audi A8, it makes very little difference, both have the same building blocks.

Tenez wrote:The easiest way to measure talent imo is to simply see the ease at which someone can win a point and how consistent he is at doing so. On a fast surface with natural strings it's obvious to see Llodra is very talented.

Talent requires the ability to exploit the environment in which it exists. If it cannot, the lack of such talent is detrimental to the overall talent that one may think about.

If Llodra cannot play on Clay, but can only play on fast HC, he should stop playing on Clay, because it hurts his talent.

If Djokovic loses to Nadal on Clay, should he stop playing on clay, perhaps, yes.

If Nadal thinks his knees suffer due to HC tennis, while there are many others who manage to stay healthy, he should consider playing on clay only.

Once talent gets tied to an external environment in which it suffers, it becomes excuse making for that specific talent. Winking

All these players when they started playing, already had a priori knowledge of potential surfaces. There was a conscious choice made to choose a style which has a preference for a specific surface. Hence a choice was made to nurture the talent within a specific environment. Nadal and Federer, both made a choice to play Tennis rather than Football. They chose to hone their skills to specific environments, as did Llodra and Djokovic and Soderling and Granollers.

If one does not like what one sees on that idiot box, turn it off. You have the ultimate control and ability to walk away. zen

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Tenez on Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:37 pm

Talent requires the ability to exploit the environment in which it exists. If it cannot, the lack of such talent is detrimental to the overall talent that one may think about.
Sounds good but utterly wrong like most of your statements. If for a painter talent is his ability to draw a picture, it does not mean he should also have the talent to draw during a battlefield. Most of Mozart pieces where dreamt first which means he was not influenced directly at the of creation by the environment.

The talent to adapt is something different, but talent is complicated enough to put them all in the same bag.

The talent to play tennis is something innate and by that very principle is not related to the ability to adapt to new conditions, especially those conds where talent will have less than an impact. Playing on a windy day on a potato field are not the best conds for talent to express itself in general.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Tenez on Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:41 pm

There was a conscious choice made to choose a style which has a preference for a specific surface.

Very arguable again. Typically a player is exposed to conds and his innate ability, not his consciousness, decides what's best for him. Like choosing a sport. You don't pick up boxing or tennis without consulting your innate abilities. They are those which decide which sport or surface you are more likely to thrive on.

I could get to any of your catch phrase and prove them wrong.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:46 pm

Tenez wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:
Tenez wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:
Edit: Yes, I also agree serve is a bit restrictive. The fact is although Federer has a brilliant serve, it's not as good as Karlovic, Sampras, Isner etc.
I think Federer's serve is better. Already at 19 when facing Pete he served as many aces as Pete. Pete's serve woudl have been much more challenge had he faced today's players with todays strings.

Another pre-conceived idea that doesn;t hold much ground when addressed objectively.
Oh sorry, I wasn't being objective.
Of course Rogers serve is superior to Sampras, once they played when Sampras was above 30 and they hit the same amount of aces.
Apologies for not realising that earlier Thumbs Up
Glad you are coming to sense at last. You are such a humble person! We are all proud of you. Thumbs Up
Yes the fact an over-30 Sampras could not hit more aces than a young Roger proves it beyond reasonable doubt. Thumbs Up
Now, instead of trying to lesson LF, any chance you could answer my 3 questions (remember I answered yours so it's only fair).

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Tenez on Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:01 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:
Now, instead of trying to lesson LF, any chance you could answer my 3 questions (remember I answered yours so it's only fair).
How old is Federer now? 31? one year older than Pete was when he met him. Could you explain how Federer's serve is now worse than when he was 18? Thumbs Up


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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by laverfan on Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:01 pm

Tenez wrote:
Talent requires the ability to exploit the environment in which it exists. If it cannot, the lack of such talent is detrimental to the overall talent that one may think about.
Sounds good but utterly wrong like most of your statements. If for a painter talent is his ability to draw a picture, it does not mean he should also have the talent to draw during a battlefield. Most of Mozart pieces where dreamt first which means he was not influenced directly at the of creation by the environment.

There are reporters who used to draw battle-scenes and were embedded with reporters troops. There is a modern technology version also.

As I said, if you cannot draw in a battle, do not leave your bedroom. If you cannot play on clay because you lack the physical strength to compete with others, stay at home and watch TV. Laugh

Tenez wrote:The talent to adapt is something different, but talent is complicated enough to put them all in the same bag.
The talent to play tennis is something innate and by that very principle is not related to the ability to adapt to new conditions, especially those conds where talent will have less than an impact. Playing on a windy day on a potato field are not the best conds for talent to express itself in general.

Yes, and that innate talent is only in one player. Laugh Playing on a windy day in a potato field requires special talent. If one needs perfect conditions to showcase one's talent, why leave the environment that is perfect and go to a potato field?


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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:06 pm

Tenez wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:
Now, instead of trying to lesson LF, any chance you could answer my 3 questions (remember I answered yours so it's only fair).
How old is Federer now? 31? one year older than Pete was when he met him. Could you explain how Federer's serve is now worse than when he was 18? Thumbs Up
lol. One match doesn't prove someone's serve is better/worse. In Wimby 2009 SF Murray hit more aces than Roddick.
Pete may not have been serving well that match, he wasn't consistent like at his prime. Roddick's serve got much worse with age, but Federer's hasn't, so that varies.

Anyway, any chance of answering the questions, or will you beat around the bush as usual Whistle
I answered all of your questions, remember.


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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by laverfan on Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:06 pm

Tenez wrote:
There was a conscious choice made to choose a style which has a preference for a specific surface.

Very arguable again. Typically a player is exposed to conds and his innate ability, not his consciousness, decides what's best for him. Like choosing a sport. You don't pick up boxing or tennis without consulting your innate abilities. They are those which decide which sport or surface you are more likely to thrive on.

Let us see you argue. Thumbs Up

Tenez wrote:I could get to any of your catch phrase and prove them wrong.

Are you threatening? Try and prove them wrong. Let us see your talent to adapt to a potato field. Thumbs Up

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Tenez on Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:17 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:
lol. One match doesn't prove someone's serve is better/worse. In Wimby 2009 SF Murray hit more aces than Roddick.
What is laughable is thinking that a players serve is worse at 30 than at 18 because of aging. One of the most ridiculous statement. Roddick serve came back more because surf slowed downs and players got better at returning.

By saying Pete had a better serve than Federer you have to consider the conditions of then. Completely different conds. Already then his serve was being returned by young Hewitt or even Safin. Now we have much better returners and like Pete's serve was not efficient on clay he would have been not as efficient in todays conds. If you want to comment about tennis, start to think outside the box and include as many parameters as you can.

Anyway, any chance of answering the questions, or will you beat around the bush as usual Whistle
I answered all of your questions, remember.
No I will not answer those senseless questions.

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:20 pm

Roddicks serve is much slower now than in his prime, even if he plays on a faster surface.
He hasnt served 140+km for the last few years.


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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by laverfan on Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:21 pm

Tenez wrote:Most of Mozart pieces where dreamt first which means he was not influenced directly at the of creation by the environment.

Dreams in a sleep state in an environment which proved conducive to his dreams. We are not talking about pen and paper is the time of creation, are we?

Kekule's dream (or it's detractors) or Crick's DNA model are some good ones to consider. Dreaming is part of the process of creation, it cannot be separated from putting it down on paper. Winking

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:22 pm

The questions btw are simple, according to your definition of talent, who is more talented?
Give an explanation for each Thumbs Up
(Just like you explained how Llodra is more talented than Djoko).

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by laverfan on Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:24 pm

Tenez wrote:Glad you are coming to sense at last. You are such a humble person! We are all proud of you. Thumbs Up

Tribalism at it's best. Laugh

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by ... on Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:16 pm

Bottom line is Nadal is a talentless moon-baller.

Everything else here is smokescreen to try and hide that painful truth

...

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by laverfan on Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:41 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Bottom line is Nadal is a talentless moon-baller.

Everything else here is smokescreen to try and hide that painful truth

Absolutely true. Djokovic and Murray are getting better at it, perhaps Granollers and Simon can offer some tips, as can Tipsarevic on gym work.

Federer will retire before that transition and hence must be the most talented Tennis player on the planet, that too with an SHBH, the greatest gift from Tennis gods deigned for their favourite son.

BTW, if a talentless moonballer is unbeatable, it is a very sorry state of affairs. Tennis must be stopped as a sport, it is the ultimate corruption of the current youth. LTA must be outlawed, because it is unable to produce talentless moonballers by the dozen, because they have no talent for it. Laugh

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by ... on Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:42 pm

laverfan wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:Bottom line is Nadal is a talentless moon-baller.

Everything else here is smokescreen to try and hide that painful truth

Absolutely true. Djokovic and Murray are getting better at it, perhaps Granollers and Simon can offer some tips, as can Tipsarevic on gym work.

Federer will retire before that transition and hence must be the most talented Tennis player on the planet, that too with an SHBH, the greatest gift from Tennis gods deigned for their favourite son.

BTW, if a talentless moonballer is unbeatable, it is a very sorry state of affairs. Tennis must be stopped as a sport, it is the ultimate corruption of the current youth. LTA must be outlawed, because it is unable to produce talentless moonballers by the dozen, because they have no talent for it.

Don't try to brush everyone under the same carpet as usual LF, I'm not buying it...

...

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Re: Who is more talented: Novak Djokovic or Michaël Llodra?

Post by ... on Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:51 pm

Anyway, I thought this was a really good thread to get into properly seeing how today's game has changed and you have chose two good examples.
Llodra, plays traditional tennis, Novak plays modern tennis. They have learned to play in different eras.

If you stuck them both of grass court with wooden racquets Llodra would probably beat Nole, but I am confident Nole could revert back to those conditions over a period of time and be just as good as he is now and beat Llodra.

It's the opposite of what Federer did when he had to adjust his pre-Nadal game to post-Annacone one.
I can see that Kohlschreiber has been able to do a bit of that as well, and Roddick tried, too.

Llodra and Mahut are sticking to their guns, and it's nice to see as they are a dying breed.

Can you see where my "death of tennis" is coming from?

...

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