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Who does she think she is?

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Emancipator on Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:52 pm

It's pretty obvious that any man in the top 1000 would beat Serena easily. In fact I doubt Serena could beat the best men's US college players. Partly physiological: as great as she is she's just not fast enough or strong enough to beat these guys. Secondly she's not used to this level of speed, athleticism and power. Perhaps with sustained training and playing at that level (ie competing with men) she could bridge the gap a little but I don't think she would ever get to the standard of beating a top 1000 player. McEnroe was being generous in his assessment.

However, having said that, I take Veejay's point and agree that it's disgraceful how Serena alone seems to be singled out in this debate. There's something about Serena that seems to make some men insecure, sadly. It's almost as if they have to re-assert their masculinity by putting her down with statements like this; 'yeah she's a great player but she could never beat a man'. Duh, well obviously. We know that the difference between the men's and the women's tour is like night and day. What's the point of making such a statement? In McEnroe's case it's his flagrant media whoredom and desire for controversy and self promotion. Even if he was asked this question directly he could have answered it generically i.e the women's game is not at the same level as the men's and therefore I think it's unrealistic to expect ANY women to beat a male pro in the top 1000. Instead he relishes the opportunity to include Serena in his answer. And we already know his opinion (in fact it's not even an opinion, it's basically a truism that everybody knows) because he's said as much on more than one occasion in the past. That's the sad thing about this whole 'debate' - it's a non-debate but it's stoked up every now and then, using Serena Williams as bait, to create controversy and for some to just use it as an opportunity to bash women and women's sports. Disclaimer: in general I find women's sport dull as dishwater but I don't like some of the misogynistic undertones that such non-questions inevitably lead to. Furthermore, there are racial connotations to singling out Serena and pretty much Serena alone for this debate. The comparison to a man is to deny her her femininity; it masculates her and thus belittles her achievements on the women's tour. Basically you're almost a man, you have an unfair advantage when you play against women therefore you should play against men, but if you did, you'd get whupped, hence you ain't as good as you think you are. There's a lot more that I could say but I'm losing the will to live.

As for Serena, the most dignified thing for her to do would have been to just stay quiet on the whole issue. However, I can understand why she would respond out of frustration. It seems as if this question in relation to her and sometimes (in the past) her sister, crops up far more often than it should. I suspect she realises that, whatever McEnroe's intentions, the answer and the question will be used as a stick to beat her. This, along with the undertones, must be humiliating. Her Twitter statement to me sounds like a simple plea: please leave me alone.

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Jahu on Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:57 pm

Oh Emanci, have a day off, will you. Let us poke some fun into these rich people.

Why do you have to make so much sense  Laugh

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Emancipator on Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:00 pm

LOL Jahu.

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:18 pm

Emancipator wrote:It's pretty obvious that any man in the top 1000 would beat Serena easily. In fact I doubt Serena could beat the best men's US college players. Partly physiological: as great as she is she's just not fast enough or strong enough to beat these guys. Secondly she's not used to this level of speed, athleticism and power. Perhaps with sustained training and playing at that level (ie competing with men) she could bridge the gap a little but I don't think she would ever get to the standard of beating a top 1000 player. McEnroe was being generous in his assessment.

However, having said that, I take Veejay's point and agree that it's disgraceful how Serena alone seems to be singled out in this debate. There's something about Serena that seems to make some men insecure, sadly. It's almost as if they have to re-assert their masculinity by putting her down with statements like this; 'yeah she's a great player but she could never beat a man'. Duh, well obviously. We know that the difference between the men's and the women's tour is like night and day. What's the point of making such a statement? In McEnroe's case it's his flagrant media whoredom and desire for controversy and self promotion. Even if he was asked this question directly he could have answered it generically i.e the women's game is not at the same level as the men's and therefore I think it's unrealistic to expect ANY women to beat a male pro in the top 1000. Instead he relishes the opportunity to include Serena in his answer. And we already know his opinion (in fact it's not even an opinion, it's basically a truism that everybody knows) because he's said as much on more than one occasion in the past. That's the sad thing about this whole 'debate' - it's a non-debate but it's stoked up every now and then, using Serena Williams as bait, to create controversy and for some to just use it as an opportunity to bash women and women's sports. Disclaimer: in general I find women's sport dull as dishwater but I don't like some of the misogynistic undertones that such non-questions inevitably lead to. Furthermore, there are racial connotations to singling out Serena and pretty much Serena alone for this debate. The comparison to a man is to deny her her femininity; it masculates her and thus belittles her achievements on the women's tour. Basically you're almost a man, you have an unfair advantage when you play against women therefore you should play against men, but if you did, you'd get whupped, hence you ain't as good as you think you are. There's a lot more that I could say but I'm losing the will to live.

As for Serena, the most dignified thing for her to do would have been to just stay quiet on the whole issue. However, I can understand why she would respond out of frustration. It seems as if this question in relation to her and sometimes (in the past) her sister, crops up far more often than it should. I suspect she realises that, whatever McEnroe's intentions, the answer and the question will be used as a stick to beat her. This, along with the undertones, must be humiliating. Her Twitter statement to me sounds like a simple plea: please leave me alone.

Yes, and what could that be?

Why did ex-Russian Fed cup captain (who was forced to resign after this comment) jokingly call Williams sisters - Williams brothers?

When the sisters came on the scene, what was it that set them apart from other women - brute force.

Same as Nadal.

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by bogbrush on Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:28 pm

Veejay wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
ok prove it then...
He's a man and she's a woman.

QED
ok so going by you logic,he would beat her simply because he is a man not based on tennis at all?
that isnt proof by any means 
would a man who has never picked up a racket before beat serena simply because he is a man 
you can believe whatever you want to believe BB,it doeant matter
what does matter is that serena has 23 grand slam titles to her name
Yeah, but it's not like they're proper Slams is it?
then what were those 23 grands slam titles that she won?
whats a "proper" slam anyway BB? 
if serena was competing in a "proper" grand slam against the same field she would most likely have been just as dominant and sucessful,so i dont know what youre trying to prove or take away from her by saying that she didnt play in "proper " grand slams.
Just that she played in the eostrogen event, the one where the people with higher levels of testosterone are banned.

There are all sorts of handicap events at a Slam - for the very young, the veterans, those in wheelchairs for example - and while they are awarded cups they are all subordinate to the main event, the proper Slam.

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Veejay on Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:38 pm

bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
ok prove it then...
He's a man and she's a woman.

QED
ok so going by you logic,he would beat her simply because he is a man not based on tennis at all?
that isnt proof by any means 
would a man who has never picked up a racket before beat serena simply because he is a man 
you can believe whatever you want to believe BB,it doeant matter
what does matter is that serena has 23 grand slam titles to her name
Yeah, but it's not like they're proper Slams is it?
then what were those 23 grands slam titles that she won?
whats a "proper" slam anyway BB? 
if serena was competing in a "proper" grand slam against the same field she would most likely have been just as dominant and sucessful,so i dont know what youre trying to prove or take away from her by saying that she didnt play in "proper " grand slams.
Just that she played in the eostrogen event, the one where the people with higher levels of testosterone are banned.

There are all sorts of handicap events at a Slam - for the very young, the veterans, those in wheelchairs for example - and while they are awarded cups they are all subordinate to the main event, the proper Slam.
if its your opinion that she doped then thats fine and youre entitled to it,( i agree to an extent) ,but she competing in popper grand slam events and won 23 of them,if you disagree then you have to say that roger federer,rafael nadal and novak djokovic and many more never competed in proper grand slam events either as there are just as many rumours,if not more about them doping then there is about serena williams
what about all the other female dopers like henin,stouser,cibukova,erani etc did they also never compete in a proper grand slam?

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Tenez on Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:44 pm

I don't think Serena is singled out here. She has been the dominant figure in women tennis and this is why McEnroe mentions her. But they have long been discussing this matter in the past and before other women were compared.

And I don;t remember any of them complaining about it.

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Veejay on Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:50 pm

... wrote:
Emancipator wrote:It's pretty obvious that any man in the top 1000 would beat Serena easily. In fact I doubt Serena could beat the best men's US college players. Partly physiological: as great as she is she's just not fast enough or strong enough to beat these guys. Secondly she's not used to this level of speed, athleticism and power. Perhaps with sustained training and playing at that level (ie competing with men) she could bridge the gap a little but I don't think she would ever get to the standard of beating a top 1000 player. McEnroe was being generous in his assessment.

However, having said that, I take Veejay's point and agree that it's disgraceful how Serena alone seems to be singled out in this debate. There's something about Serena that seems to make some men insecure, sadly. It's almost as if they have to re-assert their masculinity by putting her down with statements like this; 'yeah she's a great player but she could never beat a man'. Duh, well obviously. We know that the difference between the men's and the women's tour is like night and day. What's the point of making such a statement? In McEnroe's case it's his flagrant media whoredom and desire for controversy and self promotion. Even if he was asked this question directly he could have answered it generically i.e the women's game is not at the same level as the men's and therefore I think it's unrealistic to expect ANY women to beat a male pro in the top 1000. Instead he relishes the opportunity to include Serena in his answer. And we already know his opinion (in fact it's not even an opinion, it's basically a truism that everybody knows) because he's said as much on more than one occasion in the past. That's the sad thing about this whole 'debate' - it's a non-debate but it's stoked up every now and then, using Serena Williams as bait, to create controversy and for some to just use it as an opportunity to bash women and women's sports. Disclaimer: in general I find women's sport dull as dishwater but I don't like some of the misogynistic undertones that such non-questions inevitably lead to. Furthermore, there are racial connotations to singling out Serena and pretty much Serena alone for this debate. The comparison to a man is to deny her her femininity; it masculates her and thus belittles her achievements on the women's tour. Basically you're almost a man, you have an unfair advantage when you play against women therefore you should play against men, but if you did, you'd get whupped, hence you ain't as good as you think you are. There's a lot more that I could say but I'm losing the will to live.

As for Serena, the most dignified thing for her to do would have been to just stay quiet on the whole issue. However, I can understand why she would respond out of frustration. It seems as if this question in relation to her and sometimes (in the past) her sister, crops up far more often than it should. I suspect she realises that, whatever McEnroe's intentions, the answer and the question will be used as a stick to beat her. This, along with the undertones, must be humiliating. Her Twitter statement to me sounds like a simple plea: please leave me alone.

Yes, and what could that be?

Why did ex-Russian Fed cup captain (who was forced to resign after this comment) jokingly call Williams sisters - Williams brothers?

When the sisters came on the scene, what was it that set them apart from other women - brute force.

Same as Nadal.
he would most likely have bern forced to resign after the doping scandal anyway  Laugh
you seem deluded enough to think that doping guarantees winning,it doesnt,it only enhances your ability there are no other guarantees as you have to still produce the results through hard work
henin is rumoured to have served a 2 year doping ban,yet she was losing to the sisters
so she was using drugs most likely something like steroids to give her power against the sisters who possibly were also using something like steroids and she still lost,on top of all the poor sportsmanship cheating hand signals just to win a point 
what does that tell you
the better player will most likely still win if both players are using the exact same drug
for me its about how much of a difference the drugs are making,thats really what defines a doper 
the sisters are naturally powerful,this is a fairly common trait among all black athletes male or female,they are genetically a more athletic race
just look at the 800 meter south african runner gold medal winner caster semenya who was accused of being a hermaphrodite...
after tests being done,shes 100% female...
sore losers!!  Laugh


Last edited by Veejay on Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:57 pm

Serena is not a better player than Justin Henin.
She plays with two hands on the BH to start with.

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Veejay on Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:01 pm

... wrote:Serena is not a better player than Justin Henin.
She plays with two hands on the BH to start with.
ok... Big Grin
i guess thats why all the pundits and the tennis world widely regard henin as the greatest female tennis player in the open era

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Jahu on Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:02 pm

I second that, she was a joy to watch.

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Veejay on Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:07 pm

Jahu wrote:I second that, she was a joy to watch.
i loved that hand signal cheating at RG just to win a point...and then she lied about it by trying to deny that she lifted her hand when its caught on camera!!!  Laugh

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Jahu on Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:08 pm

Maradona style? No one is perfect man, you know ladies, sneaky and foxy  Big Grin

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Veejay on Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:15 pm

Jahu wrote:Maradona style? No one is perfect man, you know ladies, sneaky and foxy  Big Grin
definitely maradona style!! perfect example  Big Grin
i dont know how anyone can try their luck and cheat like that when there are cameras everywhere which will catch them in the act of trying to cheat 
to me its proves 1 thing,they arent bright enough to think that far ahead

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Jahu on Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:19 pm

You're wrong, they pretend they are not bright so to get sympathy and leeway for doing their little background plans while looking a little lost, true story this one!!

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Veejay on Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:23 pm

Jahu wrote:You're wrong, they pretend they are not bright so to get sympathy and leeway for doing their little background plans while looking a little lost, true story this one!!
youre right.. a la sharapova..."i didnt read the momo",or "i didnt know that what i was doing was wrong" ...very true story indeed

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Jahu on Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:24 pm

Yeah, so you can keep learning the secrets of female dark souls here on the forum, from tennis experts  Laugh

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Tenez on Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:16 am


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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by bogbrush on Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:34 am

Veejay wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
ok prove it then...
He's a man and she's a woman.

QED
ok so going by you logic,he would beat her simply because he is a man not based on tennis at all?
that isnt proof by any means 
would a man who has never picked up a racket before beat serena simply because he is a man 
you can believe whatever you want to believe BB,it doeant matter
what does matter is that serena has 23 grand slam titles to her name
Yeah, but it's not like they're proper Slams is it?
then what were those 23 grands slam titles that she won?
whats a "proper" slam anyway BB? 
if serena was competing in a "proper" grand slam against the same field she would most likely have been just as dominant and sucessful,so i dont know what youre trying to prove or take away from her by saying that she didnt play in "proper " grand slams.
Just that she played in the eostrogen event, the one where the people with higher levels of testosterone are banned.

There are all sorts of handicap events at a Slam - for the very young, the veterans, those in wheelchairs for example - and while they are awarded cups they are all subordinate to the main event, the proper Slam.
if its your opinion that she doped then thats fine and youre entitled to it,( i agree to an extent) ,but she competing in popper grand slam events and won 23 of them,if you disagree then you have to say that roger federer,rafael nadal and novak djokovic and many more never competed in proper grand slam events either as there are just as many rumours,if not more about them doping then there is about serena williams
what about all the other female dopers like henin,stouser,cibukova,erani etc did they also never compete in a proper grand slam?
Eh? I never mentioned doping. I said she competed in the event reserved for people with low testosterone (aka "women") which, like the old age or wheelchair event is run separately to give participants a chance of winning a match.

Winning 23 of them is very nice, but obviously not quite like winning a proper slam.

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Veejay on Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:30 am

bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
ok prove it then...
He's a man and she's a woman.

QED
ok so going by you logic,he would beat her simply because he is a man not based on tennis at all?
that isnt proof by any means 
would a man who has never picked up a racket before beat serena simply because he is a man 
you can believe whatever you want to believe BB,it doeant matter
what does matter is that serena has 23 grand slam titles to her name
Yeah, but it's not like they're proper Slams is it?
then what were those 23 grands slam titles that she won?
whats a "proper" slam anyway BB? 
if serena was competing in a "proper" grand slam against the same field she would most likely have been just as dominant and sucessful,so i dont know what youre trying to prove or take away from her by saying that she didnt play in "proper " grand slams.
Just that she played in the eostrogen event, the one where the people with higher levels of testosterone are banned.

There are all sorts of handicap events at a Slam - for the very young, the veterans, those in wheelchairs for example - and while they are awarded cups they are all subordinate to the main event, the proper Slam.
if its your opinion that she doped then thats fine and youre entitled to it,( i agree to an extent) ,but she competing in popper grand slam events and won 23 of them,if you disagree then you have to say that roger federer,rafael nadal and novak djokovic and many more never competed in proper grand slam events either as there are just as many rumours,if not more about them doping then there is about serena williams
what about all the other female dopers like henin,stouser,cibukova,erani etc did they also never compete in a proper grand slam?
Eh? I never mentioned doping. I said she competed in the event reserved for people with low testosterone (aka "women") which, like the old age or wheelchair event is run separately to give participants a chance of winning a match.

Winning 23 of them is very nice, but obviously not quite like winning a proper slam.
you said that she played in an eostrogen event,implying that she as a female had higher levels of testosterone then the rest of the field
seeing that she is female,that to me implies that she must have used hormones to gain that advantage,ie then implying that she was doping or using drugs the gain that advantage 
can you  prove that she has higher levels of testosterone then normale or are you just assuming tat she has?,show me a piece of paper or failed drugs test that shows that she has higher levels of testosterone that is allowed for a female to compete
dont just come back as say that she has huge muscles,using your eyes cause as pointed out above,black athletes in general,male or female are genetically more athlete as a race
surely if her testosterone levels were that irregular  then she would have either failed a drugs test,or not be allowed to compete 
the same case as caster symenya,the shouth african 800 olympic gold medal winner who was accused of being a hymaphrodite,when she is 100% female
its funny how people who hate the sisters continually accuse them of being men or looking like men and saying its unfair how they beat the rest of the field  because they have an unfair advatage and then at the same time want to place them in the mens draw and say that they will only be ranked somewhere like 700th
you keep doing that if it makes you sleep better at night  Big Grin

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by legendkillar on Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:57 am

Why Serena or Johnny Mac are taking flack on this topic is beyond me. The radio host needs shooting for one thing for the comment of "She is best ever, across the game" which is just plain daft given that 1) The Slam match formats are different for both sexes and 2) They don't compete against each other.

The ingrained culture in sport from the very beginning has always been that mens achievements are the superior. Women can take issue with that in some context, for example in Athletics, the run, swim, cycle the same distance as men, however again how can sport really proclaim equality when both sexes are kept apart from competing against each other?

Tennis is made more complicated, especially in the Slams when the format of the matches are so different. Makes equality an impossibility.

I won't say it's impossible for a woman to beat a man in the field of sport, but for the sake of equality make it an open field.

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:11 am

legendkillar wrote:Why Serena or Johnny Mac are taking flack on this topic is beyond me. The radio host needs shooting for one thing for the comment of "She is best ever, across the game" which is just plain daft given that 1) The Slam match formats are different for both sexes and 2) They don't compete against each other.

The ingrained culture in sport from the very beginning has always been that mens achievements are the superior. Women can take issue with that in some context, for example in Athletics, the run, swim, cycle the same distance as men, however again how can sport really proclaim equality when both sexes are kept apart from competing against each other?

Tennis is made more complicated, especially in the Slams when the format of the matches are so different. Makes equality an impossibility.

I won't say it's impossible for a woman to beat a man in the field of sport, but for the sake of equality make it an open field..

Really?

So men should then compete with women in giving birth, too?

Only pure idiots fall for the equality bone. Brainwashed fools.

Unfortunately there are too many of them.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QitoWz30h5Y

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by bogbrush on Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:49 am

Veejay wrote:

you said that she played in an eostrogen event,implying that she as a female had higher levels of testosterone then the rest of the field
seeing that she is female,that to me implies that she must have used hormones to gain that advantage,ie then implying that she was doping or using drugs the gain that advantage 
can you  prove that she has higher levels of testosterone then normale or are you just assuming tat she has?,show me a piece of paper or failed drugs test that shows that she has higher levels of testosterone that is allowed for a female to compete
dont just come back as say that she has huge muscles,using your eyes cause as pointed out above,black athletes in general,male or female are genetically more athlete as a race
surely if her testosterone levels were that irregular  then she would have either failed a drugs test,or not be allowed to compete 
the same case as caster symenya,the shouth african 800 olympic gold medal winner who was accused of being a hymaphrodite,when she is 100% female
its funny how people who hate the sisters continually accuse them of being men or looking like men and saying its unfair how they beat the rest of the field  because they have an unfair advatage and then at the same time want to place them in the mens draw and say that they will only be ranked somewhere like 700th
you keep doing that if it makes you sleep better at night  Big Grin
Nope, didn't imply anything of the sort. That all happened inside your head.

I explained that she's in a special event for people who don't secrete testosterone in substantial quantities. I called it the eostrogen event like another is called "wheelchair" because it best describes the disadvantage those participants have that prevents them competing in the proper Slam.

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by bogbrush on Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:51 am

... wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Why Serena or Johnny Mac are taking flack on this topic is beyond me. The radio host needs shooting for one thing for the comment of "She is best ever, across the game" which is just plain daft given that 1) The Slam match formats are different for both sexes and 2) They don't compete against each other.

The ingrained culture in sport from the very beginning has always been that mens achievements are the superior. Women can take issue with that in some context, for example in Athletics, the run, swim, cycle the same distance as men, however again how can sport really proclaim equality when both sexes are kept apart from competing against each other?

Tennis is made more complicated, especially in the Slams when the format of the matches are so different. Makes equality an impossibility.

I won't say it's impossible for a woman to beat a man in the field of sport, but for the sake of equality make it an open field..

Really?

So men should then compete with women in giving birth, too?

Only pure idiots fall for the equality bone. Brainwashed fools.

Unfortunately there are too many of them.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QitoWz30h5Y
Is that a new sport? Is it on Sky?

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Jahu on Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:59 am

How is giving birth a competition?

Your brain is a little foggy from all your God stuff.

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:12 am

bogbrush wrote:
... wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Tennis is made more complicated, especially in the Slams when the format of the matches are so different. Makes equality an impossibility.
I won't say it's impossible for a woman to beat a man in the field of sport, but for the sake of equality make it an open field..
Really?
So men should then compete with women in giving birth, too?
Only pure idiots fall for the equality bone. Brainwashed fools.
Unfortunately there are too many of them.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QitoWz30h5Y
Is that a new sport? Is it on Sky?

You may laugh but I can see even that happening with all this "equality" movement.

The more "equal" we are the easier it is to manipulate us.

They are constantly pushing the limits via media.

Imagine a 19th century man/woman turing on TV and seeing all the programmes about disabled, gays,etc....walking along a high street seeing half naked women, men tattooed, pierced freaks...or a photo of a black naked woman on a cover of a newspaper.
Now try to project the trend into the next hundred years...

Yes we really are "progressing"!

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Veejay on Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:23 pm

bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:

you said that she played in an eostrogen event,implying that she as a female had higher levels of testosterone then the rest of the field
seeing that she is female,that to me implies that she must have used hormones to gain that advantage,ie then implying that she was doping or using drugs the gain that advantage 
can you  prove that she has higher levels of testosterone then normale or are you just assuming tat she has?,show me a piece of paper or failed drugs test that shows that she has higher levels of testosterone that is allowed for a female to compete
dont just come back as say that she has huge muscles,using your eyes cause as pointed out above,black athletes in general,male or female are genetically more athlete as a race
surely if her testosterone levels were that irregular  then she would have either failed a drugs test,or not be allowed to compete 
the same case as caster symenya,the shouth african 800 olympic gold medal winner who was accused of being a hymaphrodite,when she is 100% female
its funny how people who hate the sisters continually accuse them of being men or looking like men and saying its unfair how they beat the rest of the field  because they have an unfair advatage and then at the same time want to place them in the mens draw and say that they will only be ranked somewhere like 700th
you keep doing that if it makes you sleep better at night  Big Grin
Nope, didn't imply anything of the sort. That all happened inside your head.

I explained that she's in a special event for people who don't secrete testosterone in substantial quantities. I called it the eostrogen event like another is called "wheelchair" because it best describes the disadvantage those participants have that prevents them competing in the proper Slam.
nope im not imagining anything hence the reference the caster symenya

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Veejay on Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:27 pm

... wrote:Serena is not a better player than Justin Henin.
She plays with two hands on the BH to start with.
i also forgot to mention that richard gasquest has one of the best SHBH in the game but yet when we have discussed him,you dont even think that he is talented 
when i have heard several pundits in the sport say they think that he is one of the most talented players in the draw

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by DECIMA on Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:28 pm

No basically Bogbrush was just saying the WTA game was inferior, and the way he put that across was calling the WTA Slams 'oestrogen event', because females naturally have more oestrogen than males and naturally have less testosterone (the latter helping far more in sporting performance). He wasn't implying anything about Serena.

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Veejay on Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:37 pm

legendkillar wrote:Why Serena or Johnny Mac are taking flack on this topic is beyond me. The radio host needs shooting for one thing for the comment of "She is best ever, across the game" which is just plain daft given that 1) The Slam match formats are different for both sexes and 2) They don't compete against each other.

The ingrained culture in sport from the very beginning has always been that mens achievements are the superior. Women can take issue with that in some context, for example in Athletics, the run, swim, cycle the same distance as men, however again how can sport really proclaim equality when both sexes are kept apart from competing against each other?

Tennis is made more complicated, especially in the Slams when the format of the matches are so different. Makes equality an impossibility.

I won't say it's impossible for a woman to beat a man in the field of sport, but for the sake of equality make it an open field.
what happened was that after serena won 4 majors in a row,or after she won her 23rd major ( cant remember which one) mac went on the proclaim that serena was the great athlete ever,not just in men and womens tennis,but in sport as a whole
that had to be the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard him say and he says a lot of ridiculous things
so when he was recently interviewed,the guy pulled him up on the claim he made and then mac backtracked so as not to look stupid by saying that shed only be ranked 700th
ultimately what he said was no different then saying, had roger federer or rafael nadal been born female then they would only be ranked 700th in the mens draw
a much fairer comparison would have been to say,had serena been born a man then  he thinks that she would be ranked xxx
i personally think that had serena been born a man,with her fierce competitor spirit and tennis ability,thats she would have had the potential to be a top 10 player in the mens draw,but wheher she would actually be a top 10 player is an entirely  different story as there are many men in the draw who have the potential to be a top 10 player but simply arent for whatever reason

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:40 pm

Veejay wrote:
... wrote:Serena is not a better player than Justin Henin.
She plays with two hands on the BH to start with.
i also forgot to mention that richard gasquest has one of the best SHBH in the game but yet when we have discussed him,you dont even think that he is talented 
when i have heard several pundits in the sport say they think that he is one of the most talented players in the draw
That's your problem, vee...you listen to the pundits rather than draw your own conclusions using your eyes.

btw, when did I say Gasquet is not talented?

And what has Gasquet got to do with Serena making a fool of herself first by posing naked & pregnant and then having the cheek to moan about Mac violating her privacy.

She is a good tennis player but other than that just a stupid vain cow.

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Veejay on Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:43 pm

DECIMA wrote:No basically Bogbrush was just saying the WTA game was inferior, and the way he put that across was calling the WTA Slams 'oestrogen event', because females naturally have more oestrogen than males and naturally have less testosterone (the latter helping far more in sporting performance). He wasn't implying anything about Serena.
ok,well the way his argument is coming acorss to me is that he is saying that serena has an unfair advantage over the rest of the draw because he thinks that she produces more testosterone in an eostrogen event 
but for the sake for the argument,who is BB to say what a proper grand slam is or isnt?
what qualifies him to make such a statement?

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Veejay on Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:49 pm

... wrote:
Veejay wrote:
... wrote:Serena is not a better player than Justin Henin.
She plays with two hands on the BH to start with.
i also forgot to mention that richard gasquest has one of the best SHBH in the game but yet when we have discussed him,you dont even think that he is talented 
when i have heard several pundits in the sport say they think that he is one of the most talented players in the draw
That's your problem, vee...you listen to the pundits rather than draw your own conclusions using your eyes.

btw, when did I say Gasquet is not talented?

And what has Gasquet got to do with Serena making a fool of herself first by posing naked & pregnant and  then having the cheek to moan about Mac violating her privacy.

She is a good tennis player but other than that just a stupid vain cow.
you me and tenez discussed richard gasquest a few years back,i recall it was a first match at RG just after he had won a tournament the week before
i remember tenez even asking me if gasuest was more technique then talent,you chipped in to say that you didnt even think that he was talented,cause at that stage it was all about djokovic for you
i told tenez that its my opinion that it would be impossible for anyone to have a technique like that if you didnt have the talent to begin with
so as you can see,i do draw my own conclusions
i just use other peoples in the sports opinions as a basis because i generally think that their opinions holds more weight then yours or mine 
so if youre going to say that gasquet isnt even talented then i will say,thats not what many people in the sport think

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:52 pm

Veejay wrote:
... wrote:
Veejay wrote:
... wrote:Serena is not a better player than Justin Henin.
She plays with two hands on the BH to start with.
i also forgot to mention that richard gasquest has one of the best SHBH in the game but yet when we have discussed him,you dont even think that he is talented 
when i have heard several pundits in the sport say they think that he is one of the most talented players in the draw
That's your problem, vee...you listen to the pundits rather than draw your own conclusions using your eyes.

btw, when did I say Gasquet is not talented?

And what has Gasquet got to do with Serena making a fool of herself first by posing naked & pregnant and  then having the cheek to moan about Mac violating her privacy.

She is a good tennis player but other than that just a stupid vain cow.
you me and tenez discussed richard gasquest a few years back,i recall it was a first match at RG just after he had won a tournament the week before
i remember tenez even asking me if gasuest was more technique then talent,you chipped in to say that you didnt even think that he was talented,cause at that stage it was all about djokovic for you
i told tenez that its my opinion that it would be impossible for anyone to have a technique like that if you didnt have the talent to begin with
so as you can see,i do draw my own conclusions
i just use other peoples in the sports opinions as a basis because i generally think that their opinions holds more weight then yours or mine 
so if youre going to say that gasquet isnt even talented then i will say,thats not what many people in the sport think

Your memory is poor.

Find the quote where I said Gasquet is not talented. Not your interpretation.


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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Veejay on Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:54 pm

... wrote:
Veejay wrote:
... wrote:
Veejay wrote:
... wrote:Serena is not a better player than Justin Henin.
She plays with two hands on the BH to start with.
i also forgot to mention that richard gasquest has one of the best SHBH in the game but yet when we have discussed him,you dont even think that he is talented 
when i have heard several pundits in the sport say they think that he is one of the most talented players in the draw
That's your problem, vee...you listen to the pundits rather than draw your own conclusions using your eyes.

btw, when did I say Gasquet is not talented?

And what has Gasquet got to do with Serena making a fool of herself first by posing naked & pregnant and  then having the cheek to moan about Mac violating her privacy.

She is a good tennis player but other than that just a stupid vain cow.
you me and tenez discussed richard gasquest a few years back,i recall it was a first match at RG just after he had won a tournament the week before
i remember tenez even asking me if gasuest was more technique then talent,you chipped in to say that you didnt even think that he was talented,cause at that stage it was all about djokovic for you
i told tenez that its my opinion that it would be impossible for anyone to have a technique like that if you didnt have the talent to begin with
so as you can see,i do draw my own conclusions
i just use other peoples in the sports opinions as a basis because i generally think that their opinions holds more weight then yours or mine 
so if youre going to say that gasquet isnt even talented then i will say,thats not what many people in the sport think

Your memory is poor.

Find the quote where I said Gasquet is not talented. Not your interpretation.

no i isnt,i dont have the time to go through hundred of threads to find it ,so why dont you tell me what you "really " said

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:07 pm

Serena aside, where's Truffin, Vee?

It was always good to read his updates on Fed.

I hope he's ok.

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Veejay on Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:15 pm

... wrote:Serena aside, where's Truffin, Vee?

It was always good to read his updates on Fed.

I hope he's ok.
what did you really mean NITB,i like to think of myself as a fair person,so if you are saying that i interpreted what i read wrongly then i will retract my comment  and say that i read it incorrectly 
i lost contact with truffin so i dont know where he is 
i stopped coming on here for a while and he disappeared,i havent seen or heard from him since then

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:23 pm

Veejay wrote:
... wrote:Serena aside, where's Truffin, Vee?

It was always good to read his updates on Fed.

I hope he's ok.
what did you really mean NITB,i like to think of myself as a fair person,so if you are saying that i interpreted what i read wrongly then i will retract my comment  and say that i read it incorrectly 
i lost contact with truffin so i dont know where he is 
i stopped coming on here for a while and he disappeared,i havent seen or heard from him since then

Again you are (mis)interpreting...what I mean - I say it!  Eaaasy! Big Grin

Not like some here who gutlessly wrap their stuff in layers of "hints"
I don"t have time for that. Life is too short.

Anyway, just find at least the thread I said it on and I'll read it.
I have always liked Richie esp his BH, but thought his FH was rubbish.

Very, very nice guy as well.

I am more frustrated with him for wasting his talent.

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Slippy on Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:27 pm

Veejay wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Why Serena or Johnny Mac are taking flack on this topic is beyond me. The radio host needs shooting for one thing for the comment of "She is best ever, across the game" which is just plain daft given that 1) The Slam match formats are different for both sexes and 2) They don't compete against each other.

The ingrained culture in sport from the very beginning has always been that mens achievements are the superior. Women can take issue with that in some context, for example in Athletics, the run, swim, cycle the same distance as men, however again how can sport really proclaim equality when both sexes are kept apart from competing against each other?

Tennis is made more complicated, especially in the Slams when the format of the matches are so different. Makes equality an impossibility.

I won't say it's impossible for a woman to beat a man in the field of sport, but for the sake of equality make it an open field.
what happened was that after serena won 4 majors in a row,or after she won her 23rd major ( cant remember which one) mac went on the proclaim that serena was the great athlete ever,not just in men and womens tennis,but in sport as a whole
that had to be the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard him say and he says a lot of ridiculous things
so when he was recently interviewed,the guy pulled him up on the claim he made and then mac backtracked so as not to look stupid by saying that shed only be ranked 700th
ultimately what he said was no different then saying, had roger federer or rafael nadal been born female then they would only be ranked 700th in the mens draw
a much fairer comparison would have been to say,had serena been born a man then  he thinks that she would be ranked xxx
i personally think that had serena been born a man,with her fierce competitor spirit and tennis ability,thats she would have had the potential to be a top 10 player in the mens draw,but wheher she would actually be a top 10 player is an entirely  different story as there are many men in the draw who have the potential to be a top 10 player but simply arent for whatever reason
Is there a difference between "greatest" and "best" here? It's arguable that Serena's achievements in women's tennis make her the greatest tennis player. However, as Mc said, she obviously isn't the best tennis player - as she can't compete with the top men. I haven't heard the actual interview but the extracts I've read make it sound like the interviewer was suggesting the latter?

I think you are making this all about Serena when all Mc was really doing was repeating his previous statement that no female player would be able to compete with the top men. The only reason Serena was mentioned is because that was who they were discussing at the time.

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Veejay on Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:49 pm

Slippy wrote:
Veejay wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Why Serena or Johnny Mac are taking flack on this topic is beyond me. The radio host needs shooting for one thing for the comment of "She is best ever, across the game" which is just plain daft given that 1) The Slam match formats are different for both sexes and 2) They don't compete against each other.

The ingrained culture in sport from the very beginning has always been that mens achievements are the superior. Women can take issue with that in some context, for example in Athletics, the run, swim, cycle the same distance as men, however again how can sport really proclaim equality when both sexes are kept apart from competing against each other?

Tennis is made more complicated, especially in the Slams when the format of the matches are so different. Makes equality an impossibility.

I won't say it's impossible for a woman to beat a man in the field of sport, but for the sake of equality make it an open field.
what happened was that after serena won 4 majors in a row,or after she won her 23rd major ( cant remember which one) mac went on the proclaim that serena was the great athlete ever,not just in men and womens tennis,but in sport as a whole
that had to be the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard him say and he says a lot of ridiculous things
so when he was recently interviewed,the guy pulled him up on the claim he made and then mac backtracked so as not to look stupid by saying that shed only be ranked 700th
ultimately what he said was no different then saying, had roger federer or rafael nadal been born female then they would only be ranked 700th in the mens draw
a much fairer comparison would have been to say,had serena been born a man then  he thinks that she would be ranked xxx
i personally think that had serena been born a man,with her fierce competitor spirit and tennis ability,thats she would have had the potential to be a top 10 player in the mens draw,but wheher she would actually be a top 10 player is an entirely  different story as there are many men in the draw who have the potential to be a top 10 player but simply arent for whatever reason
Is there a difference between "greatest" and "best" here? It's arguable that Serena's achievements in women's tennis make her the greatest tennis player. However, as Mc said, she obviously isn't the best tennis player - as she can't compete with the top men. I haven't heard the actual interview but the extracts I've read make it sound like the interviewer was suggesting the latter?

I think you are making this all about Serena when all Mc was really doing was repeating his previous statement that no female player would be able to compete with the top men. The only reason Serena was mentioned is because that was who they were discussing at the time.
in the interview garcia navarro clearly says: we are talking about male player but of course there are wonderful female players lets talk about serena willaims
so how am i making this all about serena willams when they were discussing her? 
for the highlighted part,i have brought that point up several times before in other discussions,most recently over on the GOAT thread 
its my opinion that there is a difference between greatest ever and best ever.I think that players are great by their achievements,ie federer being the greatest by achievements,but best ever refers to how good a player you actually are,not necessarily what you achieved.but i could be wrong because at the end of the day tennis is about winning,it doesnt matter how you won,same as running a race,its about crossing the winning line first,doesnt matter how you got there 
winning does = achieving 
i think that its impossible to be the best ever as too much has changed over time for players to be compared fairly
thats just my opinion even though mac claimed in the interview that serena is the best female player ever

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by bogbrush on Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:07 pm

Veejay wrote:
DECIMA wrote:No basically Bogbrush was just saying the WTA game was inferior, and the way he put that across was calling the WTA Slams 'oestrogen event', because females naturally have more oestrogen than males and naturally have less testosterone (the latter helping far more in sporting performance). He wasn't implying anything about Serena.
ok,well the way his argument is coming acorss to me is that he is saying that serena has an unfair advantage over the rest of the draw because he thinks that she produces more testosterone in an eostrogen event 
but for the sake for the argument,who is BB to say what a proper grand slam is or isnt?
what qualifies him to make such a statement?
OK, and thanks DECIMA for getting us past the other point.

As for what qualifies me to identify a proper Slam, well it's obvious! Everything apart from the Mens event is a QUALIFIED ENTRY TOURNAMENT, in that people with advantaged physiology are barred from entry. You can't enter the wheelchair unless you sit in one (though I wonder if you're allowed in if you're sitting by choice?), you can't enter the boys event if you're too old, or the veterans if you're too young.... and you can't enter the womens unless you're "testosterone inhibited".

Indeed I think there's a stronger argument for equal prize money between the boys, girls, veterans, wheelchair and womens events than there is with the mens as the first group are all qualified entry.

For anyone who can really cut it in an open field there's the proper Slam, also known as the Mens event. True, women aren't actually allowed to enter that but it's a moot point as none would want to and they certainly wouldn't be seen in the main 128 player draw after qualifying.

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Veejay on Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:17 pm

bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
DECIMA wrote:No basically Bogbrush was just saying the WTA game was inferior, and the way he put that across was calling the WTA Slams 'oestrogen event', because females naturally have more oestrogen than males and naturally have less testosterone (the latter helping far more in sporting performance). He wasn't implying anything about Serena.
ok,well the way his argument is coming acorss to me is that he is saying that serena has an unfair advantage over the rest of the draw because he thinks that she produces more testosterone in an eostrogen event 
but for the sake for the argument,who is BB to say what a proper grand slam is or isnt?
what qualifies him to make such a statement?
OK, and thanks DECIMA for getting us past the other point.

As for what qualifies me to identify a proper Slam, well it's obvious! Everything apart from the Mens event is a QUALIFIED ENTRY TOURNAMENT, in that people with advantaged physiology are barred from entry. You can't enter the wheelchair unless you sit in one (though I wonder if you're allowed in if you're sitting by choice?), you can't enter the boys event if you're too old, or the veterans if you're too young....nd you can't enter the womens unless you're "testosterone inhibited".a

Indeed I think there's a stronger argument for equal prize money between the boys, girls, veterans, wheelchair and womens events than there is with the mens as the first group are all qualified entry.

For anyone who can really cut it in an open field there's the proper Slam, also known as the Mens event. True, women aren't actually allowed to enter that but it's a moot point as none would want to and they certainly wouldn't be seen in the main 128 player draw after qualifying.
doesnt look like i was misunderstanding you at all
back to the south african 800 olympic gold meter runner who was accused if being a hymephrodite 

so if you think your opinion qualifies you to decide what a proper glam slam is and isnt,why dont we see anyone else in the sport voicing the exact same opinion?
here mac is calling serena the best female tennis player ever,even though i rarely tend to agree with many of his crazy comments,he is basing a lot of his opinion on her 23 majors,not once have i ever heard him or anyone else say that they arent proper grand slams
you are the first and only person  have ever heard saying that
so if you want to go around saying that they arent proper grand slam go right ahead i dont care,no one else seem to be doing it which rather makes your opinion null and void

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by bogbrush on Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:43 pm

Veejay wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
DECIMA wrote:No basically Bogbrush was just saying the WTA game was inferior, and the way he put that across was calling the WTA Slams 'oestrogen event', because females naturally have more oestrogen than males and naturally have less testosterone (the latter helping far more in sporting performance). He wasn't implying anything about Serena.
ok,well the way his argument is coming acorss to me is that he is saying that serena has an unfair advantage over the rest of the draw because he thinks that she produces more testosterone in an eostrogen event 
but for the sake for the argument,who is BB to say what a proper grand slam is or isnt?
what qualifies him to make such a statement?
OK, and thanks DECIMA for getting us past the other point.

As for what qualifies me to identify a proper Slam, well it's obvious! Everything apart from the Mens event is a QUALIFIED ENTRY TOURNAMENT, in that people with advantaged physiology are barred from entry. You can't enter the wheelchair unless you sit in one (though I wonder if you're allowed in if you're sitting by choice?), you can't enter the boys event if you're too old, or the veterans if you're too young....nd you can't enter the womens unless you're "testosterone inhibited".a

Indeed I think there's a stronger argument for equal prize money between the boys, girls, veterans, wheelchair and womens events than there is with the mens as the first group are all qualified entry.

For anyone who can really cut it in an open field there's the proper Slam, also known as the Mens event. True, women aren't actually allowed to enter that but it's a moot point as none would want to and they certainly wouldn't be seen in the main 128 player draw after qualifying.
doesnt look like i was misunderstanding you at all
back to the south african 800 olympic gold meter runner who was accused if being a hymephrodite 

so if you think your opinion qualifies you to decide what a proper glam slam is and isnt,why dont we see anyone else in the sport voicing the exact same opinion?
here mac is calling serena the best female tennis player ever,even though i rarely tend to agree with many of his crazy comments,he is basing a lot of his opinion on her 23 majors,not once have i ever heard him or anyone else say that they arent proper grand slams
you are the first and only person  have ever heard saying that
so if you want to go around saying that they arent proper grand slam go right ahead i dont care,no one else seem to be doing it which rather makes your opinion null and void
Do you have a problem with knowing what the word "inhibited" means? Serena gets to enter the estrogen event because she's testosterone inhibited. 

An opinion isn't null because others don't share it, it just means the one holding it might be ahead of their time. I experience this quite a lot.

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Veejay on Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:47 pm

bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
DECIMA wrote:No basically Bogbrush was just saying the WTA game was inferior, and the way he put that across was calling the WTA Slams 'oestrogen event', because females naturally have more oestrogen than males and naturally have less testosterone (the latter helping far more in sporting performance). He wasn't implying anything about Serena.
ok,well the way his argument is coming acorss to me is that he is saying that serena has an unfair advantage over the rest of the draw because he thinks that she produces more testosterone in an eostrogen event 
but for the sake for the argument,who is BB to say what a proper grand slam is or isnt?
what qualifies him to make such a statement?
OK, and thanks DECIMA for getting us past the other point.

As for what qualifies me to identify a proper Slam, well it's obvious! Everything apart from the Mens event is a QUALIFIED ENTRY TOURNAMENT, in that people with advantaged physiology are barred from entry. You can't enter the wheelchair unless you sit in one (though I wonder if you're allowed in if you're sitting by choice?), you can't enter the boys event if you're too old, or the veterans if you're too young....nd you can't enter the womens unless you're "testosterone inhibited".a

Indeed I think there's a stronger argument for equal prize money between the boys, girls, veterans, wheelchair and womens events than there is with the mens as the first group are all qualified entry.

For anyone who can really cut it in an open field there's the proper Slam, also known as the Mens event. True, women aren't actually allowed to enter that but it's a moot point as none would want to and they certainly wouldn't be seen in the main 128 player draw after qualifying.
doesnt look like i was misunderstanding you at all
back to the south african 800 olympic gold meter runner who was accused if being a hymephrodite 

so if you think your opinion qualifies you to decide what a proper glam slam is and isnt,why dont we see anyone else in the sport voicing the exact same opinion?
here mac is calling serena the best female tennis player ever,even though i rarely tend to agree with many of his crazy comments,he is basing a lot of his opinion on her 23 majors,not once have i ever heard him or anyone else say that they arent proper grand slams
you are the first and only person  have ever heard saying that
so if you want to go around saying that they arent proper grand slam go right ahead i dont care,no one else seem to be doing it which rather makes your opinion null and void
Do you have a problem with knowing what the word "inhibited" means? Serena gets to enter the estrogen event because she's testosterone inhibited. 

An opinion isn't null because others don't share it, it just means the one holding it might be ahead of their time. I experience this quite a lot.
even in the age of the internet? but even then not necessarily,it could also mean that your opinion is factually wrong
i experience that a lot too
call it whatever you want to BB,not a "proper" grand slam or whatever...its 23 more then youll ever have

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Tenez on Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:09 pm

Vee...what do you make of Serena begging for privacy during her pregnancy and then exposing her naked body to the whole world?

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Slippy on Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:52 pm

Veejay wrote:
Slippy wrote:
Veejay wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Why Serena or Johnny Mac are taking flack on this topic is beyond me. The radio host needs shooting for one thing for the comment of "She is best ever, across the game" which is just plain daft given that 1) The Slam match formats are different for both sexes and 2) They don't compete against each other.

The ingrained culture in sport from the very beginning has always been that mens achievements are the superior. Women can take issue with that in some context, for example in Athletics, the run, swim, cycle the same distance as men, however again how can sport really proclaim equality when both sexes are kept apart from competing against each other?

Tennis is made more complicated, especially in the Slams when the format of the matches are so different. Makes equality an impossibility.

I won't say it's impossible for a woman to beat a man in the field of sport, but for the sake of equality make it an open field.
what happened was that after serena won 4 majors in a row,or after she won her 23rd major ( cant remember which one) mac went on the proclaim that serena was the great athlete ever,not just in men and womens tennis,but in sport as a whole
that had to be the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard him say and he says a lot of ridiculous things
so when he was recently interviewed,the guy pulled him up on the claim he made and then mac backtracked so as not to look stupid by saying that shed only be ranked 700th
ultimately what he said was no different then saying, had roger federer or rafael nadal been born female then they would only be ranked 700th in the mens draw
a much fairer comparison would have been to say,had serena been born a man then  he thinks that she would be ranked xxx
i personally think that had serena been born a man,with her fierce competitor spirit and tennis ability,thats she would have had the potential to be a top 10 player in the mens draw,but wheher she would actually be a top 10 player is an entirely  different story as there are many men in the draw who have the potential to be a top 10 player but simply arent for whatever reason
Is there a difference between "greatest" and "best" here? It's arguable that Serena's achievements in women's tennis make her the greatest tennis player. However, as Mc said, she obviously isn't the best tennis player - as she can't compete with the top men. I haven't heard the actual interview but the extracts I've read make it sound like the interviewer was suggesting the latter?

I think you are making this all about Serena when all Mc was really doing was repeating his previous statement that no female player would be able to compete with the top men. The only reason Serena was mentioned is because that was who they were discussing at the time.
in the interview garcia navarro clearly says: we are talking about male player but of course there are wonderful female players lets talk about serena willaims
so how am i making this all about serena willams when they were discussing her? 
for the highlighted part,i have brought that point up several times before in other discussions,most recently over on the GOAT thread 
its my opinion that there is a difference between greatest ever and best ever.I think that players are great by their achievements,ie federer being the greatest by achievements,but best ever refers to how good a player you actually are,not necessarily what you achieved.but i could be wrong because at the end of the day tennis is about winning,it doesnt matter how you won,same as running a race,its about crossing the winning line first,doesnt matter how you got there 
winning does = achieving 
i think that its impossible to be the best ever as too much has changed over time for players to be compared fairly
thats just my opinion even though mac claimed in the interview that serena is the best female player ever
Earlier in the thread, you suggest Mc should have given rankings for other female players. However, as you say, they were discussing Serena which is why she was specifically referenced. If you asked Mc whether any specific female player was the best in the world generally, I'm sure he would give a similar answer. He wasn't picking on or singling out Serena. 

I have now read the full transcript and I actually think he comes across really well. Possibly he could have avoided the question, but he would only need to do so to avoid the unjustified PC backlash. What he actually said was very respectful of Serena and an honest opinion.

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Veejay on Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:05 pm

Tenez wrote:Vee...what do you make of Serena begging for privacy during her pregnancy and then exposing her naked body to the whole world?
good point tenez 
crazy and very contradictory  if you ask me 
one minute shes asking him to respect her privacy (????) on the same day vanity fair publicises almost completely nude photos of her pregnant body
i still dont get what she was saying by asking mac to respect her privacy while shes trying to have a baby,i guess its probably what EM said above,shes basically asking him to leave her alone
its very contradictory,but shes not the first person to say one thing and then do the complete opposite and she certainly wont be the last

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Jahu on Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:11 pm

Ok saw Serena's nude pic, DISASTER!!! not sexy or motherly or anything

Vee can have her, I'm off black booty for next 12 months  headhurts

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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Veejay on Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:18 pm

Slippy wrote:
Veejay wrote:
Slippy wrote:
Veejay wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Why Serena or Johnny Mac are taking flack on this topic is beyond me. The radio host needs shooting for one thing for the comment of "She is best ever, across the game" which is just plain daft given that 1) The Slam match formats are different for both sexes and 2) They don't compete against each other.

The ingrained culture in sport from the very beginning has always been that mens achievements are the superior. Women can take issue with that in some context, for example in Athletics, the run, swim, cycle the same distance as men, however again how can sport really proclaim equality when both sexes are kept apart from competing against each other?

Tennis is made more complicated, especially in the Slams when the format of the matches are so different. Makes equality an impossibility.

I won't say it's impossible for a woman to beat a man in the field of sport, but for the sake of equality make it an open field.
what happened was that after serena won 4 majors in a row,or after she won her 23rd major ( cant remember which one) mac went on the proclaim that serena was the great athlete ever,not just in men and womens tennis,but in sport as a whole
that had to be the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard him say and he says a lot of ridiculous things
so when he was recently interviewed,the guy pulled him up on the claim he made and then mac backtracked so as not to look stupid by saying that shed only be ranked 700th
ultimately what he said was no different then saying, had roger federer or rafael nadal been born female then they would only be ranked 700th in the mens draw
a much fairer comparison would have been to say,had serena been born a man then  he thinks that she would be ranked xxx
i personally think that had serena been born a man,with her fierce competitor spirit and tennis ability,thats she would have had the potential to be a top 10 player in the mens draw,but wheher she would actually be a top 10 player is an entirely  different story as there are many men in the draw who have the potential to be a top 10 player but simply arent for whatever reason
Is there a difference between "greatest" and "best" here? It's arguable that Serena's achievements in women's tennis make her the greatest tennis player. However, as Mc said, she obviously isn't the best tennis player - as she can't compete with the top men. I haven't heard the actual interview but the extracts I've read make it sound like the interviewer was suggesting the latter?

I think you are making this all about Serena when all Mc was really doing was repeating his previous statement that no female player would be able to compete with the top men. The only reason Serena was mentioned is because that was who they were discussing at the time.
in the interview garcia navarro clearly says: we are talking about male player but of course there are wonderful female players lets talk about serena willaims
so how am i making this all about serena willams when they were discussing her? 
for the highlighted part,i have brought that point up several times before in other discussions,most recently over on the GOAT thread 
its my opinion that there is a difference between greatest ever and best ever.I think that players are great by their achievements,ie federer being the greatest by achievements,but best ever refers to how good a player you actually are,not necessarily what you achieved.but i could be wrong because at the end of the day tennis is about winning,it doesnt matter how you won,same as running a race,its about crossing the winning line first,doesnt matter how you got there 
winning does = achieving 
i think that its impossible to be the best ever as too much has changed over time for players to be compared fairly
thats just my opinion even though mac claimed in the interview that serena is the best female player ever
Earlier in the thread, you suggest Mc should have given rankings for other female players. However, as you say, they were discussing Serena which is why she was specifically referenced. If you asked Mc whether any specific female player was the best in the world generally, I'm sure he would give a similar answer. He wasn't picking on or singling out Serena. 

I have now read the full transcript and I actually think he comes across really well. Possibly he could have avoided the question, but he would only need to do so to avoid the unjustified PC backlash. What he actually said was very respectful of Serena and an honest opinion.
they were discussing serena but i asked if mac is saying that shes the greatest female player who would only be ranked 700 in the mens draw,what is he indirectly saying about all the other female athletes?
if he is going to go out and claim that serena will only be ranked 700 who he thinks is the greatest female player ever,what would the ranking of all the other female players bellow her be?
its a fair question and if i was a female player i would call him out on it and ask him what my ranking according to him be?
as i said before,its all if's until its all proven,thats why i can understand why any female player would be offended by what he is saying because when someone says something like that it comes across as if they are trying take something away from the womans game,by saying that the men are so much better then the women.we already know that,you dont have to say it in way to try and take something away from the womens game
what mac is basically saying is that serena is good but in the "real world" shes only  really "this"/ranked 700 good...
its not a fair comparison either,they are different sexes,the womens game is the real world
the guy asked him if shes the greatest and all he had to say was no,shes the greatest female.the reason why he asked mac if shes the greatest athlete is because he said so a few month earlier!!!
yes he is giving his honest opinion,but in fairness that changes almost weekly and is the reason why i never take anything he ever says seriously


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Re: Who does she think she is?

Post by Veejay on Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:25 pm

Jahu wrote:Ok saw Serena's nude pic, DISASTER!!! not sexy or motherly or anything

Vee can have her, I'm off black booty for next 12 months  headhurts
were you even into it in the first place jahu?  Laugh
i have to agree the photos are very unflattering,i didnt them at all

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Re: Who does she think she is?

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