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The GOAT conversation will reboot...

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The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Emancipator on Fri May 12, 2017 5:35 pm

If Nadal wins the FO and gets to 15.

It's looking very likely now.

He'll probably be on 15 and looking fit and in form and with an age advantage of five years he'll have plenty of opportunities over the next few years to overtake Federer.

Realistically I think Federer has this year and maybe next to add to his tally.

I think Fed needs another to keep a reasonable gap. Even if Rafa gets to within 2 a lot of people will have him down as the GOAT given his utter dominance of his rival over the years.

It's a bloody good job that Roger won in Oz or the gap coulda been just one after the FO.

Perhaps Djokovic can find some form and halt the Nadal machine once again?

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by ... on Fri May 12, 2017 5:44 pm

Federer is the GOAT.
Full stop.

Nadal is not even in top 10 conversation.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by AceofDeath on Fri May 12, 2017 6:02 pm

Nadal is already the GOAT







of butt-picking and injury excuses

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by bogbrush on Fri May 12, 2017 8:34 pm

No, I don't see Nadal winning much more. 

In any case, impressive as 15 would be, having 10 on the specialist surface just means he's incredible in clay and pretty good elsewhere. Federers record with 5 wins at least on 3 majors is far stronger.

I don't even see Nadal as a shoo-in at RG. He's really beaten no one yet on clay. And there's always the chance that a fully refreshed Federer tilts the score even further his way........

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Tenez on Fri May 12, 2017 10:04 pm

Not only 10 on clay but 5 others on surfaces slowed down to clay pace. So frankly, just a one dimensional player.

Had he won the USO prior to 2010, before they started to provide bigger balls, he could have made a point, but any tennis fan knows that the courts were all slow down to allow him success. The fact is he did not beat a seeded player on a court as medium pace as the USO was prior to 2010.

And finally, his game itself is just so 1D too. Just looking at him on clay is awful, he struggles against everybody in the first set and then just manages to outlast.

A sad player.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Veejay on Sat May 13, 2017 5:47 pm

but what if Federer were to win RG?

you cannot rule out the possibility of federer winning RG taking into consideration how successful he has been so far this season,especailly against nadal
that would dramatically change this argument
although nadal has been the player to beat throughout this clay season  so far,he hasn't quite looked the unbeatable beast he has done in previous seasons
but even if he were to win RG  he would still have to win another 4 majors to over take roger
I really struggle to see that happening

as seen with all previous all time greats of the game,getting to 12 grand slam titles is a possibility as that's pretty much how much you could cram in in the window of opportunity and before time and the rest of the field starts catching up with you,once youre not guaranteed to win every final youre in,it becomes harder and harder just to win 1 more
it could take rafael nadal another 5 grand slam finals just to win 2 more majors or even just 1 ,who knows maybe even 6-8 finals as its very unlikely that he will win every final he is in,and then the question would be,does he have another 5+ grand slam finals left in his legs?
it took Federer 4 years to win 1 more major and in those 4 years he only managed to make 3 grand slam finals,the 4th final in the 5th year since winning his last major to win his 18th major

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by gallery play on Mon May 15, 2017 12:17 pm

Yes, if Rafa wins RG it will reboot. Whether we like it or not.

But if Federer wins wimbledon, well, that has to hamper the bloody conversation for once and for all. Of course Federer is GOAT, but i guess it will take one more Wimbledon title to exterminate the last cockroach on earth (no offence to anyone Winking )

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Emancipator on Mon May 15, 2017 6:46 pm

Veejay wrote:but what if Federer were to win RG?

you cannot rule out the possibility of federer winning RG taking into consideration how successful he has been so far this season,especailly against nadal
that would dramatically change this argument
although nadal has been the player to beat throughout this clay season  so far,he hasn't quite looked the unbeatable beast he has done in previous seasons
but even if he were to win RG  he would still have to win another 4 majors to over take roger
I really struggle to see that happening

as seen with all previous all time greats of the game,getting to 12 grand slam titles is a possibility as that's pretty much how much you could cram in in the window of opportunity and before time and the rest of the field starts catching up with you,once youre not guaranteed to win every final youre in,it becomes harder and harder just to win 1 more
it could take rafael nadal another 5 grand slam finals just to win 2 more majors or even just 1 ,who knows maybe even 6-8 finals as its very unlikely that he will win every final he is in,and then the question would be,does he have another 5+ grand slam finals left in his legs?
it took Federer 4 years to win 1 more major and in those 4 years he only managed to make 3 grand slam finals,the 4th final in the 5th year since winning his last major to win his 18th major


If Federer were to win RG again that would solidify his claim. 2 or more slams at each event.

Which is why AUS was so huge. That would have given Rafa 2 wins at least at each slam.

However, as much as some would like to dismiss Nadal's claim, if he does win again in Paris the conversation will undoubtedly restart. It would show that he's back and able to win slams. Furthermore, the tour is as weak as I can ever remember it. Outside of the usual suspects who are all gonna over thirty in a weeks time the rest of the competition is dire so the window of opportunity or further slams or the likes of Rafa extends itself.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by legendkillar on Mon May 15, 2017 7:23 pm

No doubt the debate will resurface for a number of reasons. Think predominately more than anything will be the stage of his career. In his 30's. Not so much GOAT debate, if anything the longevity discussion will blossom further.

For his supporters, it will knock Sampras into 3rd (though to some he already is).

I don't think he will catch Federer. Think the 18th solidifed that.

When you look at the field right now, A Fedal Slam haul looks likely this year (Since 2010). Scary!

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Veejay on Mon May 15, 2017 8:10 pm

TMF wrote:
Veejay wrote:but what if Federer were to win RG?

you cannot rule out the possibility of federer winning RG taking into consideration how successful he has been so far this season,especailly against nadal
that would dramatically change this argument
although nadal has been the player to beat throughout this clay season  so far,he hasn't quite looked the unbeatable beast he has done in previous seasons
but even if he were to win RG  he would still have to win another 4 majors to over take roger
I really struggle to see that happening

as seen with all previous all time greats of the game,getting to 12 grand slam titles is a possibility as that's pretty much how much you could cram in in the window of opportunity and before time and the rest of the field starts catching up with you,once youre not guaranteed to win every final youre in,it becomes harder and harder just to win 1 more
it could take rafael nadal another 5 grand slam finals just to win 2 more majors or even just 1 ,who knows maybe even 6-8 finals as its very unlikely that he will win every final he is in,and then the question would be,does he have another 5+ grand slam finals left in his legs?
it took Federer 4 years to win 1 more major and in those 4 years he only managed to make 3 grand slam finals,the 4th final in the 5th year since winning his last major to win his 18th major


If Federer were to win RG again that would solidify his claim. 2 or more slams at each event.

Which is why AUS was so huge. That would have given Rafa 2 wins at least at each slam.

However, as much as some would like to dismiss Nadal's claim, if he does win again in Paris the conversation will undoubtedly restart. It would show that he's back and able to win slams. Furthermore, the tour is as weak as I can ever remember it. Outside of the usual suspects who are all gonna over thirty in a weeks time the rest of the competition is dire so the window of opportunity or further slams or the likes of Rafa extends itself.
if nadal were to win then it would definitely reignite the GOAT conversation ,but having said that,its mostly just opinion
federer is widely regarded to be the GOAT but that doesnt automatically mean that its a fact?
does slam tally really measure who the best ever was? i personally dont think so cause i think that theres more to the game that adds to greatness
federer is definitely the greatest by achievement but is he the best ever? thats a completely different argument i think,one that is very hard to determine because so much comes into play,how the game has changed,how the conditions and surfaces have changed over the years and the impact racket technology has had on the game,it pretty much impossible to compare eras fairly 
i believe federer to be the most complete player the game has ever seen and the way he plays the game is so unique,its so effortless,he literally makes it look like a performing art,to me thats where his greatness really lies
the other thing for me thats massively in his favour,is that if he were to be given a wooden racket,that he would still be more or less the same player 
so even if rafael nadal were to over take his grand slam record,to me that doesnt over take his greatness in my honest opinion 
just like on the flip side for die hard nadal fans he already is their GOAT and who can argue with that?

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Jahu on Mon May 15, 2017 8:25 pm

Their GOAT and GLOBAL GOAT are two different things, see the Global GOAT can come and fuck your local GOAT anytime, cause he is just a local GOAT  Laugh

Guess Rafa wining RG would make him second GOAT, I'll give him that, yes one sided clay moonballer, but stats would then speak.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Veejay on Mon May 15, 2017 8:32 pm

Laugh Laugh ^^

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Jahu on Mon May 15, 2017 8:37 pm

Also are 7 W less worthy of 10 RG?

Are 10 Monaco more then 15 Halle and Basel combined?

Unlimited math.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Emancipator on Mon May 15, 2017 9:00 pm

Jahu wrote:Also are 7 W less worthy of 10 RG?

Are 10 Monaco more then 15 Halle and Basel combined?

Unlimited math.

10 RG's certainly beats 7 W's but 9 RG's vs, say, 8 W's. I'd go with the 8 W's as I believe it is more difficult to dominate on the grass and upsets happen more frequently on grass than clay.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Jahu on Mon May 15, 2017 9:01 pm

Agree there, and W is held at higher premium than RG anyway.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by AceofDeath on Mon May 15, 2017 10:25 pm

It depends how the player won those 10 RG's you can't just look at numbers when it comes to this sport. Any player can beat you in Wimbledon by serving big so it's harder to collect titles than at the French where the big servers get destroyed usually.

7 beats 10 or even 12 in this case.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Tenez on Tue May 16, 2017 6:27 am

We will never be able to exterminate aĺl cockroaches....though many died recently.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by ... on Tue May 16, 2017 6:32 am

This whole GOAT discussion is beginning to look more and more like stg that came out of Murdoch's spin machine.

Or as Goebels used to say: repeat a lie a hundred times and it becomes truth.

Good job I am alive to also repeat: in no Universe is Nadal a goat.

That seat has been oreordained for Federer from the brginning of times!

And no amound of brainwash is ever going to change that.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Tenez on Tue May 16, 2017 6:36 am

Yep. Even of Nadal wins RG he will still be 3 short of Fed. Thats a lot and cant see him bridge that.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Emancipator on Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:27 pm

Now just 3 behind but with years left it would seem.

Federistas it's getting hot in here  Laugh

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by legendkillar on Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:29 pm

In the words of Mark and Lard.... no need!

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Emancipator on Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:31 pm

Rafa looked scary good today. As good as ever. If he continues in this from anything is possible. Certainly he will be tough to stop at the USO. Probably only Federer has a decent chance but make no mistake, Rafa is playing much better than he did earlier in the year when Federer was beating him.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by legendkillar on Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:33 pm

But will the surfaces coming up allow Nadal to push Federer further behind the line? Look at Thiems map between Rome and Madrid and just a tweak in court speed made all the difference. 

Granted Nadal is being more aggressive, less forgiving surfaces will even it out in my book.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by ... on Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:33 pm

Emancipator wrote:Rafa looked scary good today. As good as ever. If he continues in this from anything is possible. Certainly he will be tough to stop at the USO. Probably only Federer has a decent chance but make no mistake, Rafa is playing much better than he did earlier in the year when Federer was beating him.
But he'll still never be the GOAT.


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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Veejay on Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:37 pm

well imagine of nadal had won AO earlier this year
he was up 3-1 in the 5th set
he would have had 16 today and federer 17
that AO win is going to make a huge difference for federer 
sadly he may have to win another to secure his record ...

but still nadal has to win another 4 majors to over take roger,i struggle to see that happening 
he will always be in the conversation at RG but not as much at the other grand slams

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Emancipator on Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:55 pm

Veejay wrote:well imagine of nadal had won AO earlier this year
he was up 3-1 in the 5th set
he would have had 16 today and federer 17
that AO win is going to make a huge difference for federer 
sadly he may have to win another to secure his record ...

but still nadal has to win another 4 majors to over take roger,i struggle to see that happening 
he will always be in the conversation at RG but not as much at the other grand slams

Yep I agree with all that.

Thank goodness Federer won in OZ. I think it's unlikely that Nadal catches Federer but in theory he could probably win a couple more FO's and then he'd just need one more elsewhere - doable.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Emancipator on Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:55 pm

Can someone please translate what Bartoli is saying - Tenez?

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Daniel on Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:15 pm

Such a simplistic way of looking at things. Federer's spread across slams is 5-1-7-5. Sampras is 2-0-7-5

Nadal's is 1-10-2-2

I don't care if Nadal gets 20 French Opens - it does not make him a better player. Consistency across surfaces is more important than total slams.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by summerblues on Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:16 pm

Emancipator wrote:Thank goodness Federer won in OZ. I think it's unlikely that Nadal catches Federer but in theory he could probably win a couple more FO's and then he'd just need one more elsewhere - doable.
No kidding about OZ - and it was a close call too smiley

But let's not get ahead of ourselves too much.  This time last year the plans were for Nole to be reaching 14 slams easily and 17+ quite possibly.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Veejay on Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:20 pm

summerblues wrote:
Emancipator wrote:Thank goodness Federer won in OZ. I think it's unlikely that Nadal catches Federer but in theory he could probably win a couple more FO's and then he'd just need one more elsewhere - doable.
No kidding about OZ - and it was a close call too smiley

But let's not get ahead of ourselves too much.  This time last year the plans were for Nole to be reaching 14 slams easily and 17+ quite possibly.
that should really put things in perspective

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Emancipator on Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:17 pm

summerblues wrote:
Emancipator wrote:Thank goodness Federer won in OZ. I think it's unlikely that Nadal catches Federer but in theory he could probably win a couple more FO's and then he'd just need one more elsewhere - doable.
No kidding about OZ - and it was a close call too smiley

But let's not get ahead of ourselves too much.  This time last year the plans were for Nole to be reaching 14 slams easily and 17+ quite possibly.

Haha, indeed, but I do like to stir the pot.

Oz may go down as the most important match between the two when all is said and done.

Especially now that Rafa has proven that he is not a spent force this year. 

The rest of this year could certainly decide it once and for all in Federer's favour - I think another slam and it's a done deal. For Nadal, there is still a lot of work to do.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Tenez on Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:40 pm

Can someone please translate what Bartoli is saying - Tenez?
=========
Missed it all today as i was travelling to Barca.

Agree SB. Who knows what's next?

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Jahu on Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:16 pm

No worries Fed fans, Rafa has just one more GS left on him, Fed probably same.

Next year Andy/Djoko are bound to wake the fuck up, with a some one from the young boys getting a GS too.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Tenez on Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:42 am

I am not worried. I just don't think Nadal's new game will be as efficient on the other surface.....however he will always be tough to beat in that form.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by AceofDeath on Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:22 pm

Normal people will only value Roland Garros as half a slam so Nadal has 10 slams and Federer has 17.5.

Kuerten was another joke player who did very little outside RG. Clay is an abomination of a surface.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Veejay on Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:40 pm

whatever the case may be,nadal has never been able to dominate the game consistently,its always just been little spurts of dominance usually around 3 months and then he fades away for the rest of the season
to over take federer he has to win another 4 majors,can he win another 4 RG titles?

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by AceofDeath on Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:50 pm

If players can't keep the ball in play for more than a minute then of course he can win another couple RG's. Everyone has noticed Thiem and Stan have bad defense and spray errors under the tiniest bit of pressure.

Stop slapping errors and have a good defense and he will start to crack. That's what Djokovic used to do well.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Veejay on Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:57 pm

if you take into consideration how much thiem has improved over the clay season,its entirely plausible for him improve even more but i guess only time will tell

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by bogbrush on Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:35 pm

If Nadal ended up with 19 Slams with 14 of them at RG I think even die-hard Rafalitos might concede this is a bit different to the spread that Federer has achieved.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by bogbrush on Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:36 pm

Veejay wrote:well imagine of nadal had won AO earlier this year
he was up 3-1 in the 5th set
he would have had 16 today and federer 17
that AO win is going to make a huge difference for federer 
sadly he may have to win another to secure his record ...

but still nadal has to win another 4 majors to over take roger,i struggle to see that happening 
he will always be in the conversation at RG but not as much at the other grand slams

Yeah, come on Fed - take Wimbledon and the US and shut this thing down for good.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by gallery play on Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:41 pm

bogbrush wrote:If Nadal ended up with 19 Slams with 14 of them at RG I think even die-hard Rafalitos might concede this is a bit different to the spread that Federer has achieved.
No, Rafalitos will claim winning the "toughest slam of all" so often is a bigger accomplishment than spreading wins over all 4 slams.

Anyway, 19 is still a long way to go.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Emancipator on Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:44 pm

Certainly Nadal looked as good as ever yesterday. If he can maintain that form (a big if) he's gonna take some serious stopping at the USO and even W if he can navigate the first few rounds.

Of course the additional element to consider is the matchup with Federer which has turned on it's head. Fed is now the clear favourite on all surfaces except clay. With all the talk of Rafa's resurgence it's easy to forget that Roger has owned him this season. So if all else fails Federer is still playing well enough to slay the Nadull.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Tenez on Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:24 pm

The problem is that Nadal is going to be tougher at the end of tournaments. Federer is never going to be on form at the end of a slam. He will need lots of aces to beat this Nadal from now.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Veejay on Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:24 pm

nadal looked really beatable in the first set,he seemed really nervous and was making a ton of unforced errors,i think that the dynamic of the match may have been different had wawrinka taken his chances,but i still think that nadal would have won in the end cause stan wasnt playing that great
once nadal had the 1set under his belt he relaxed more and moved up a gear
so i think that nadal can still be very vulnerable when he is feeling nervous

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Emancipator on Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:51 pm

The OZ final must have felt like a dagger in the heart to the Nadal fans.

Across the forums they were exulting before the final, certain in their victory, and ready to proclaim their man GOAT. Then at 3-1 in the fifth they must have thought it was a done deal and probably began preparing their reams of tedious arguments about H2H's etc. - but then he lost.  Laugh

I have to say it's been great that they've been to forced to quieten down over the last couple of years. Remember how they used to hijack every thread with tedious arguments about H2H? They aggressively asserted their man's claim to GOAThood through this whataboutery even though the overall statistics where far from in his favour because they were so confident that it was only a matter of time before their man overtook Fed. Then the last 2 years happened and then of course OZ.

Alas, 'tis always the way with hubris.  Wah

Hopefully, if Fed can get one more he can close this conversation down for good. It would be an absolute travesty if the limited artisan Nadal were to eclipse Federer in the slam stakes. By talent alone Federer should be at least 10 ahead. Sadly the conditions have allowed Nadal to win more slams than his talent deserves.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Veejay on Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:58 pm

the 7 straight loses to djokovic really shut them up  Laugh
the h2h argument really doesnt prove anything as a player can tank a match to avoid playing an opponent just to keep a better h2h record
im not saying that players do this,even though agassi admitted to something similar in his biography,but it just exposes a massive flaw
you cannot use a flawed theory to try and prove something 
its like saying 2+2 = 5 and then try an use that as a mathematical theory to prove sums

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Emancipator on Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:19 pm

The sad thing is that they flogged that H2H horse endlessly.. and then it turned around and bit them in the bum. Firstly, Djokovic, who has pretty much owned Nadal since 2011 apart from a short spell and now even Federer has proven that with a bigger racquet he too can own Nadal. 

The only thing they had over Federer was the H2H but Federer has made inroads into that. Even bigger is the fact that Federer has won their biggest match to date - after coming back from knee surgery and at the age of 35. Remember how they used to always go on about Nadal's injuries and would basically award him extra slams based on injury lay offs and then laude how amazing he was to come back after injury? Well Federer trumped all of that - he not only came back after injury, but surgery too, and then after 6 months off he won his first tournament back, a slam, beating four top ten opponents - never done before.

The GOAT proving his Goathood with the greatest slam victory in the open era. Man, that musta burned for the Rafalitos especially the way Federer blew him off court in that fifth set. Even then they tried to play the tired card. Sadly for them Federer then hammered him again in IW and Miami  Laugh

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Tenez on Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:27 am

Emancipator wrote:The OZ final must have felt like a dagger in the heart to the Nadal fans.

Across the forums they were exulting before the final, certain in their victory, and ready to proclaim their man GOAT. Then at 3-1 in the fifth they must have thought it was a done deal and probably began preparing their reams of tedious arguments about H2H's etc. - but then he lost.  Laugh

I have to say it's been great that they've been to forced to quieten down over the last couple of years. Remember how they used to hijack every thread with tedious arguments about H2H? They aggressively asserted their man's claim to GOAThood through this whataboutery even though the overall statistics where far from in his favour because they were so confident that it was only a matter of time before their man overtook Fed. Then the last 2 years happened and then of course OZ.

Alas, 'tis always the way with hubris.  Wah

Hopefully, if Fed can get one more he can close this conversation down for good. It would be an absolute travesty if the limited artisan Nadal were to eclipse Federer in the slam stakes. By talent alone Federer should be at least 10 ahead. Sadly the conditions have allowed Nadal to win more slams than his talent deserves.

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Yep Djoko killed that H2H advantage once and for all cause he now has a positive one over Nadal...plus holding teh 4 at once.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by Tenez on Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:29 am

Federer doesn't need to win anything for now to prove the point but Nadal has to be stopped however. Cause shoudl he get to 16 or 17....then we might have to revisit.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

Post by ... on Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:52 am

Does anyone know who came up with this GOAT idea?

It must have been some Nadal fan.

Or was it about breaking Sampras' record?

I can't remember....


It is very easy to see who the best/greatest player is.

Only those who don't want to are trying to muscle the truth.

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Re: The GOAT conversation will reboot...

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