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Federer's FH

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Federer's FH

Post by Tenez on Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:52 pm

We have talked a lot about Fed's BH having improved considerably with this new racquet. I believe we all agree that his serve is also improved.

Now,as I told you in 2009 that federer played better then than in 2006  I am now telliing you that his FH is also better than back then.

Fed gets better angles with it but more importantly easier and safer power. It might be less consistent than in the past but that's more dure to his legs tiring quicker than the FH itself. But look at any clip of 2006/7 and you will see his FH is considerably more powerful now. It's obvious when playing Nadal. Nadal doesn't even bother running for it nowadays ....whereas in the past he coudl get to it. One reason might be that he takes it even earlier now than then.

Pretty obvious on this clip:

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by ... on Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:13 pm

I reckon we are yet to see the best of his FH...possibly in Wimbledon.

That's what he'll be working on during this break..to take it as early as possible.

Now that his BH has taken so much pressure of the rest off his game, it's time for the FH to take over.

Though, we could already see in 2017 how how FH was not misifiring like in 2016.

Exciting times.

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by ... on Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:06 am

Just saw the clip, you're right, he is taking the fh very early, piercing the court with it.

Real tennis, so different from the spinny slug joke we were watching all through Monte Carlo (with the notable exception of D.Goffin).

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by Tenez on Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:43 am

And to nail the point....let's look at fed's BH and FH in 2006. I chose Nadal as it's the best way to compare with today's game.


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Re: Federer's FH

Post by bogbrush on Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:02 am

I think there's nothing controversial about saying someones FH or BH are better than they used to be given they use superior equipment and have years to improve, once you exclude the effects of age (as you have in the OP). At that point it kind of becomes self-evident.

The argument made for the pre-eminence of F2006 over F2017 is precisely that the early version could be playing to great effect with incredible movement and defensive capability after 5 hours and would (so the argument goes) defeat the current version.

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by Tenez on Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:16 am

I am not trying to be controversial. I am just pointing to 2 clips which show how Federer has also improved in his FH which was not mentioned here before.

Regarding mouvement, contrary to you (maybe?) I do not see much difference when Fed is fresh. I only see drops of it towards the end of tournament and in particular after the first set.

One thing is clear for me, especially looking at those 2006 clips, Federer would destroy Nadal 2006. It would not be close.

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by ... on Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:16 am

Tenez wrote:And to nail the point....let's look at fed's BH and FH in 2006. I chose Nadal as it's the best way to compare with today's game.



Amazing!
Esp the BH...
People have rose tinted glasses when it comes to the past.

ps
I would love to hear what Daniel has to say on this one!



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Re: Federer's FH

Post by Tenez on Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:58 am

Interesting also to hear the argument that Federer then would outlast his current version when he coudl not even outlast nadal on that clip (note that Nadal makes him run almost as much if not more than himself).

And so after federer won for the first time at 35, Nadal at the AO, but also in a 5th set after having had himself 3 x 5 setters on the way and winning 2 of the most gruelling TMS1000 in succession.

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by Tenez on Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:16 am

Federer's 5th set record up to 2010:

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/atp-5-set-records-five-set.335267/

ranked 26th amongst the then active players.

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by legendkillar on Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:29 am

bogbrush wrote:I think there's nothing controversial about saying someones FH or BH are better than they used to be given they use superior equipment and have years to improve, once you exclude the effects of age (as you have in the OP). At that point it kind of becomes self-evident.

The argument made for the pre-eminence of F2006 over F2017 is precisely that the early version could be playing to great effect with incredible movement and defensive capability after 5 hours and would (so the argument goes) defeat the current version.


True, however the issue comes where if Federer isn't winning Slams or major titles for that matter that he must be worse now than his pomp.

I agree it's not inconceivable for someone to improve their shots late in their career.

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by Emancipator on Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:51 pm

No - clearly not. The FH in his prime (part around 04-05) was lethal.

Federer has actually said that his FH is not as good with the new racquet in an interview after IW I think.

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by Emancipator on Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:58 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xbk4JYjKRI

At the end he talks about how his FH was helped by his old racquet.

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by Emancipator on Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:04 pm

Overall some aspects are better:

Gains in BH and return of serve

Neutral: Serve, net play

Losses: Movement (the most important thing), stamina, FH (particularly inside out and running FH DTL which have almost become non existant)

Overall - a clearly inferior player to his prime version over five sets. Over three sets it would be tight but I'd still back the 05-06 version to win.

Where you argument falls down Tenez is that for it to have any cadence you make the patently ridiculous assertion that Nadal is playing better than ever whereas even a blind man can see that Rafa is a shadow of the player he was in 08-13.

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by ... on Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:53 pm

The point is, every shot gets better with time, it's as inevitable as is the fact we all get older every day.

The more you strike the ball, the better the timing.

I challenge everyone here who plays to tell me it's the other way round.

So if we improve, how much more the pros!!!

I mean, that is the basic common knowledge.

There must be a peak at some age of course...for the pros, probably in late 40s.

It's just a matter of how you play those shots, the ever growing arsenal, experience...how you combine them against new younger opponents whom bring different games.

So far, Fed's sorted them all.

The only thing against him is that he can't recover as wuickly as when he was younger.

But his footwork is immaculate.

The game he plays now is more complex and tougher than in 2006.

His 2017 tennis is simply awesome.

I can't wait to see him play in Wimbledon.

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by Tenez on Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:30 pm

TMF wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xbk4JYjKRI

At the end he talks about how his FH was helped by his old racquet.

But it is not clear what he says here whereas what I see on those clips I posted is pretty clear. Plus he says in your clip that he can step in early and has more easy power with this new racquet. And he has been saying for a long time that his serve is also more powerful. It;s just obvious that he hits the shots more freely now thanks to the bigger sweetspot. Can't you see it in those clips? PLus his forehand with his old racquet was at its best in 2011. certainly not in 04/05.

Look at those clips: Thee it looks like it does not matter how big the frame is. He times the ball so well that he coudl play with a racquet the size of a ping pong bat.


His match v Djoko 2011 is also amazing.

Daniel would love to use those clip to prove that he was better then but unfortunately they are 5 years past his "peak".


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Re: Federer's FH

Post by ... on Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:17 am

Yes...Fed clearly loved Monaco's ball (poor guy, what humiliation).

When you see him play like that, it's inconceivable he managed to lose in that sf.

But for comparison, it's better to look at one opponent over the years.

Ones vs Nadal are quite interesting and tennis used to look slow when the two played.

Despite that, it's still considerably faster now, but then when you compare pace vs any other opponent it's even faster.

He must be feeling pretty smug atm. Big Grin

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by Tenez on Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:29 am

... wrote:When you see him play like that, it's inconceivable he managed to lose in that sf.
Once again he lost over the distance....and having 2 MPs on his serve!

But for comparison, it's better to look at one opponent over the years.
Agreed.

This is why I stuck to Nadal as he best can show progressed made by players on tour. Why? simply because he arrives with a very distinctive game and ball in particular. And there is no way to train versus this kind of game unless one can produce it. We can see in that Dubai 06 that Federer is still learning how to play Nadal. Even his FH is nowhere as good as it was at that time simply because the ball he has to handle is much harder to time. So Federer over spin his own FH to minimise UEs.

This is the very reason players make each other better and why they still improve, shot wise, in their 30s, should they stay committed of course.

Ones vs Nadal are quite interesting and tennis used to look slow when the two played.
For the very reason I mentioned above. Fed trying to cut out his UEs .

Despite that, it's still considerably faster now, but then when you compare pace vs any other opponent it's even faster.
Yes....cause once again if the is coming to him more horizontally than vertically (Nadal's spin) then it's much easier to time and flat hit....which of course paces things up.

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by ... on Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:50 am

Tenez wrote:
... wrote:When you see him play like that, it's inconceivable he managed to lose in that sf.
Once again he lost over the distance....and having 2 MPs on his serve!
It's those "inexplicable" moments that make tennis very interesting on a higher level.
Tenez wrote:
But for comparison, it's better to look at one opponent over the years.
Agreed.
This is why I stuck to Nadal as he best can show progressed made by players on tour. Why? simply because he arrives with a very distinctive game and ball in particular. And there is no way to train versus this kind of game unless one can produce it. We can see in that Dubai 06 that Federer is still learning how to play Nadal. Even his FH is nowhere as good as it was at that time simply because the ball he has to handle is much harder to time. So Federer over spin his own FH to minimise UEs.
Yes, that makes sense.
And I find it interesting how Nole more or less never had a problem with that ball.
It must have been his technique, as his fh is very wristy and he times it well, too.

Fed strikes his fh totally differently, so it took him longer to adjust. Also, Nadal can't afford to play 4m behind the baseline against him any more now that Fed has a bigger frame.
Tenez wrote:
This is the very reason players make each other better and why they still improve, shot wise, in their 30s, should they stay committed of course.
I am interested to know why you think Nadal'a ball on clay is still a challenge for Fed.

Tenez wrote:
Yes....cause once again if the is coming to him more horizontally than vertically (Nadal's spin) then it's much easier to time and flat hit....which of course paces things up.

Do you think Nadal would try the vertical ball on clay vs Fed?

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by Tenez on Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:14 pm

... wrote:And I find it interesting how Nole more or less never had a problem with that ball.
It must have been his technique, as his fh is very wristy and he times it well, too.
Exactly, plus very western grip, etc...

Fed strikes his fh totally differently, so it took him longer to adjust. Also, Nadal can't afford to play 4m behind the baseline against him any more now that Fed has a bigger frame.
The thing is fed has always been able to win sets versus Nadal much more easily than Djoko in fact (Nadal v Djoko was always gruelling). So Federer always knew how to handle Nadal......for a set....if that. Djoko made the difference v Nadal after the first set....when Federer was fading v Nadal, Nadal in turn was fading v Djoko. It's not so much a shot for shot advantage, it;s about being able rally, able to win territory after the 10th shot, point after point .

I am interested to know why you think Nadal'a ball on clay is still a challenge for Fed.
I personally think it is not anymore. In fact with Fed's power on both wings, clay should be an excellent surface for him now. Like it has always been for powerful players. But fed on top of that has amazing guile and touch, great serve, mouvement, and very strong mind, which usually guys like Soderling, Berdych were lacking.

Unfortunately we won't be able to see whether I am right or wrong on this as he is not committing to play on it.

Do you think Nadal would try the vertical ball on clay vs Fed?
Of course...and it will always be a bit of a problem....but as mentioned on the other side, Nadal won't be able to stand 4m behind like he can afford versus the other players. So in this trade off, I really fancy Fed's chances.
In the past as we coudl see Fed's BH and even FH were rather soft compared to now so Nadal coudl just stand back and send the ball back at nausea....woudl be very different now.

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by ... on Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:25 pm

Tenez wrote:

I am interested to know why you think Nadal'a ball on clay is still a challenge for Fed.
I personally think it is not anymore. In fact with Fed's power on both wings, clay should be an excellent surface for him now. Like it has always been for powerful players. But fed on top of that has amazing guile and touch, great serve, mouvement, and very strong mind, which usually guys like Soderling, Berdych were lacking.

I think so, too.

Just was surprised why you seemed to be so upset Federer was skipping clay.

To me he is clearly very tired after all those matches on hard courts...and the tennis he was playing.

I looked at the calendar, just a week before Rome...surely not enough for a decent rest for him.
He may give it a go next year!

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by Tenez on Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:53 pm

... wrote:I think so, too.

Just was surprised why you seemed to be so upset Federer was skipping clay.

To me he is clearly very tired after all those matches on hard courts...and the tennis he was playing.

I looked at the calendar, just a week before Rome...surely not enough for a decent rest for him.
He may give it a go next year!

Of course he is but he should have skipped Miami. Glad he won it but that was a mistake in my view (and his MPs against it prove my point to some extend)....unless he saw the opp because Murray and Djoko were not playing.

I just think he needed rest after IW....and coudl have played one clay tournament and the FO. I woudl have been happy with that. That's not much if you consider that IW finished beginning of March and teh FO is in June. plus 3 weeks before Wimbledon.

Also I don;t think playing Stuggart and Halle before Wimby is very smart either. We know he can make mistakes....(ie racquet) and to me this is one clearly.

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by ... on Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:33 pm

You are probably right.
I am just going by what he said about his knee feeling funny on clay...maybe it was giving him pain...or maybe he just wants to be 100% ready for Wimbledon...regardless of whether he wins or not...he just doesn't want any risk.

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by Tenez on Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:47 pm

... wrote:You are probably right.
I am just going by what he said about his knee feeling funny on clay...maybe it was giving him pain...or maybe he just wants to be 100% ready for Wimbledon...regardless of whether he wins or not...he just doesn't want any risk.
Maybe or he is using this as an excuse for his sponsors.

I was watching his FH here. really more bite into it. Even when they are not winners they are pacy enough to prevent Nadal from releasing his full swing....meaning that where Nadal coudl hit his full swing and inject his spin, in this clip he has less time for it and just enough to block the ball.

Also we can see that in spite of the high bounce, Fed can still whack the ball on his FH and BH...something he coudl not quite do with his old racquet.

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by ... on Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:05 pm

Yes, some great flat ones. 

Plus the serve!

I think now that the BH is so good, his mind is relaxed...he is dismantling Nadal...amd he was tired in that match!!!He is going to go wild in Wimbledon.

We have not seen his finest match.

I so look forward to it.

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by Tenez on Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:06 pm

In that clip check in particular at 4'05 and 5'52.

Nadal is not far from the ball but it's simply too pacy, too deep for him to react on time. I have not seen many like those v Nadal prior to fed adopting the new racquet.

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by ... on Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:15 pm

I still think the key is in the BH.

Nadal is in complete state of panic vs Fed now.

He doesn not know what to do as balls are coming fast to him from both wings.

And some of those FHs Fed took so early he ate them alive.

Totally rampant.


Lucky him!

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by Tenez on Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:30 pm

Of course the BH makes a huge difference but it is also the FH which allows him to win v Nadal on slow HC, high bounce, while very tired, relatively comfortably.

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by ... on Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:37 pm

You have a good point.

There was a stage with his new racquet where I secretly regretted he changed it as his FH lacked pace, it must have been the old, spinny mode.

What he must have done in these 6 months off - he worked his socks off practising taking  the ball early, esp the bh.

Fh must have been a natural consequence, and I think he'll be really thrilled with it and work even more on it now.
He rarely misses the easy ones now, and that was the mkst frustrating for me in the USO 2015 final.

In a way, it's good he played and won these three tournaments + 3 wins over Nadal...as it just gave him that confidence he still needed...that sky is the li itmnow...that is why I am so excited. He is in the world of his own now...everyone far behind.

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by ... on Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:01 pm

Btw, thanks for the clips.

It's just sublime how he has played in 2017. 
Pure flying tennis.

It finally all clicked together!

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by ... on Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:34 pm

As I was watching him time the ball so well on all kinds of shots for the last 15 mins...I remembered and am going to quote my own verse now:


"...he loves the ball
She loves him back!"

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by gallery play on Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:33 pm

That Miami clip also shows that Federer wasn't playing as lame as many claimed. It was Nadal who was having an off day and still it was reasonably close.
I'm not so sure Fed certainly would have beaten Nadal on clay. Fed needs to play well to win no matter how Nadal plays. It took some of the best games Federer ever played to finally get Nadal on his knees at the AO. Had that match been played on clay, Nadal would have won. I like to think different though... 

So i'm fine with Federer skipping the clay season. Of all remaining slams, RG is the toughest for him to win. Theoretically he had a better chance than many of the previous years, but what are we asking? A 36 y/o to grab a calender slam? 
Skipping Miami wouldn't have made a difference. It's not about the 2 of 3 weeks off, at this age he needs good periodization program more than ever: a mesocycle. It's quite standard for any top athlete to have these breaks, it's just that the ATP tour doesn't leave much space for the average player. Most of them need to grind day in day out to keep their ranking. For Federer that's no longer relevant.

I have faith team Federer know what they're doing and don't think money ,sponsoring, TD's or whatever are part of his desicions.
And if he fails on grass he may look stupid, but there's more to come this year.

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by ... on Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:48 pm

gallery play wrote:That Miami clip also shows that Federer wasn't playing as lame as many claimed. It was Nadal who was having an off day and still it was reasonably close.
I'm not so sure Fed certainly would have beaten Nadal on clay. Fed needs to play well to win no matter how Nadal plays. It took some of the best games Federer ever played to finally get Nadal on his knees at the AO. Had that match been played on clay, Nadal would have won. I like to think different though... 
Any player must play well to beat Nadal, simply as he is the ultimate retrieving machine.

But with the new BH, Federer has turned the corner with Nadal.

Yes we were all on the edge of our seats until the last point, but at the same time we had that same feeling Nadal was helpless, just like he is vs Nole (when he plays well).

Fed did play brilliantly, but he did not have to risk like mad, hurl to the net, SABR etc like in the past.
His face never had that shadow of stress like before.

AO was the beginning, mental win for him more than anything.
Even tired in Miami he beat Nadal comfortably. We were never in doubt, were we ? (and neither was he)

Nadal nothing to beat Fed with on any surface now. Esp if the conds are fast (clay) and the balls are kept reasonable size.



Agree about Wimbledon not being be all and end all for him.

He is now on a different mission.

Nadal looked "ominous" in Monte Carlo because he was playing B grade opponents.
Goffin had to be seriously robbed by the umpire in order for Nadal to win.

Imagine how much better Fed is than Goffin, starting woth the serve,

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by Tenez on Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:33 pm

gallery play wrote:That Miami clip also shows that Federer wasn't playing as lame as many claimed. It was Nadal who was having an off day and still it was reasonably close.
I did not see the full match but I don't think Nadal was having an off day like he had in IW. Fed was surely very tired. 3 setters v Berdych, 3 very long setters v Kyrgios late on Friday so minimum recovery for Sunday 1pm match.

I'm not so sure Fed certainly would have beaten Nadal on clay. Fed needs to play well to win no matter how Nadal plays.
Correct and has always been the case. But now he has a racquet which allows him to execute his game fully. It is no coincidence that he won teh last 4 matches. I am pretty sure he would beat Rafa because of those powerful shots. On clay they are harder to get to than on hard court. In a way it would make all clay courts play like blue clay thanks to his powerful shots.

It took some of the best games Federer ever played to finally get Nadal on his knees at the AO. Had that match been played on clay, Nadal would have won. I like to think different though...
 he just needed to find some forms for 3 sets. When he was on form he clearly was much better than Nadal, the sets he lost were kind of recuperation sets. ....but yes Nadal was tired too and this is where Fed's game is deadly cause he can exploit this tiredeness better than anyone. He won the last 5 games in that AO similarly to the way he won the last 6 games in Miami 2005. And this new racquet allows him to punch harder...from both wings.

Skipping Miami wouldn't have made a difference. It's not about the 2 of 3 weeks off, at this age he needs good periodization program more than ever: a mesocycle. It's quite standard for any top athlete to have these breaks, it's just that the ATP tour doesn't leave much space for the average player. Most of them need to grind day in day out to keep their ranking. For Federer that's no longer relevant.
Never heard about mesocycle...but you might be right. I just think 6 weeks woudl have been plenty (2 from Miami plus 4 till Madrid or Rome).

I have faith team Federer know what they're doing and don't think money ,sponsoring, TD's or whatever are part of his desicions.
And if he fails on grass he may look stupid, but there's more to come this year.
Hopefully.

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Re: Federer's FH

Post by Tenez on Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:38 pm

... wrote:Imagine how much better Fed is than Goffin, starting woth the serve,
Agreed.

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