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Federer sacrificing #1?

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Re: Federer sacrificing #1?

Post by Veejay on Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:36 pm

bogbrush wrote:Pressure for what? He's clear,y not fussed about the ranking and he'll go to grass fresh and ready. The pressure is all off, gone: #18 saw to that.

And Slippy has the same view as me that the 4th seeding at W is more or less secure.
the pressure and expectation he will be placing on himself to achieve the results he expects or feels he should achieve
not saying he cant deal with it just that its like putting all your eggs in 1 basket 
i personally feel that at this stage of his career his best results come spontaneously

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Re: Federer sacrificing #1?

Post by bogbrush on Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:42 pm

So.... exactly the same pressure he'd have if he was playing the clay season.

I just don't get the connection between not playing clay and adding pressure.

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Re: Federer sacrificing #1?

Post by Veejay on Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:16 pm

bogbrush wrote:So.... exactly the same pressure he'd have if he was playing the clay season.

I just don't get the connection between not playing clay and adding pressure.
because youre focusing purely on 1 title,youre putting everything into it,so if something goes wrong it will end up being a huge disappointment 
its like betting everything you have on winning 1 title  
focusing completely on the grass season means that theres an expectation to win or do really well
not playing the clay season suggests ( could be wrong i.e physicality)  that he doesnt think he stands much of a chance 
not playing under the same kind of pressure

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Re: Federer sacrificing #1?

Post by Daniel on Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:18 pm

Federer is being very smart. About time.  He's run himself stupid since turning 30 - scheduling like he is still in his 20s, but his back issue has perhaps led to him being more realistic and logical. He is 36 now. He isn't expected to participate in every competition or challenge for WN1.  He already holds the record there and it isn't likely to be beat anytime soon.  It's trophies that players play for. Winning events.  Federer is making sure his body lasts (said so often enough) and giving himself the best chance he can to capture a final Wimbledon title - or win another Slam.

He is too old now to be playing a full season and he wouldn't make much inroads at clay regardless.

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Re: Federer sacrificing #1?

Post by bogbrush on Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:07 pm

Veejay wrote:
bogbrush wrote:So.... exactly the same pressure he'd have if he was playing the clay season.

I just don't get the connection between not playing clay and adding pressure.
because youre focusing purely on 1 title,youre putting everything into it,so if something goes wrong it will end up being a huge disappointment 
its like betting everything you have on winning 1 title  
focusing completely on the grass season means that theres an expectation to win or do really well
not playing the clay season suggests ( could be wrong i.e physicality)  that he doesnt think he stands much of a chance 
not playing under the same kind of pressure
How does that make any sense when he's just won the Australian Open and two Masters Titles?

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Re: Federer sacrificing #1?

Post by Veejay on Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:39 pm

bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
bogbrush wrote:So.... exactly the same pressure he'd have if he was playing the clay season.

I just don't get the connection between not playing clay and adding pressure.
because youre focusing purely on 1 title,youre putting everything into it,so if something goes wrong it will end up being a huge disappointment 
its like betting everything you have on winning 1 title  
focusing completely on the grass season means that theres an expectation to win or do really well
not playing the clay season suggests ( could be wrong i.e physicality)  that he doesnt think he stands much of a chance 
not playing under the same kind of pressure
How does that make any sense when he's just won the Australian Open and two Masters Titles?
because he wasnt withdrawing from other tournaments to focus purely on winning those titles
there was no added pressure to win by "sacrificing" anything else or at the expense of withdrawing from other tournaments simply to win those tournaments 
dont get me wrong,im not saying his decision to skip the whole clay season is wrong or right,all im saying is that focusing purely on winning wimbledon will be added pressure

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Re: Federer sacrificing #1?

Post by Tenez on Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:08 pm

What are the odds of him winning Wimby? Not great in my view..even though he may have the best odds of them all. If he doesn't win wimbledon, he will look a bit stupid not to have given the French a try.

But the main thing is that some of you seem happy he skips the clay entirely but did not see anything wrong with going all the way to Miami. When frankly it woudl have been smarter to rest and play one clay TMS instead. There was nothing more dangerous than playing a whole TMS 1000 on HC while already exhausted....even if I am bloody impressed he managed to win both.

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Re: Federer sacrificing #1?

Post by Veejay on Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:48 am

i personally think that right now there are far more players that he could potentially lose to at wimbledon then there would be at RG

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Re: Federer sacrificing #1?

Post by bogbrush on Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:54 am

Veejay wrote:i personally think that right now there are far more players that he could potentially lose to at wimbledon then there would be at RG
I think we're now into strange territory if you are trying to suggest his chances of winning Wimbledon are lower than Roland Garros. If you're not, and it is possible to see that other meaning, then it's an irrelevant comment. If you are then you're just plain wrong all over.

There are far more players who could drag him into very long, arduous matches on clay, something that could - not would, but could - see the end of his career. This is what matters more than winning or losing an event. He will, like every other player, enter any event more likely to lose than win. 

I'd be happy to see him play at RG. I'm sorry he isn't playing every event, but I'd be even sorrier if if blew his fitness and we had a re-run of 2016, possibly leading to imminent retirement.

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Re: Federer sacrificing #1?

Post by bogbrush on Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:57 am

Tenez wrote:What are the odds of him winning Wimby? Not great in my view..even though he may have the best odds of them all. If he doesn't win wimbledon, he will look a bit stupid not to have given the French a try.
Not really. The decision is rational even if you (with less information available than him) disagree.

By the way, I also was wary of Miami but as the cards fell he could only throw a match to escape. As it was, he won and plotted a recuperation while the rest slog it out on a surface he historically has had the least success on.

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Re: Federer sacrificing #1?

Post by bogbrush on Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:59 am

Veejay wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
bogbrush wrote:So.... exactly the same pressure he'd have if he was playing the clay season.

I just don't get the connection between not playing clay and adding pressure.
because youre focusing purely on 1 title,youre putting everything into it,so if something goes wrong it will end up being a huge disappointment 
its like betting everything you have on winning 1 title  
focusing completely on the grass season means that theres an expectation to win or do really well
not playing the clay season suggests ( could be wrong i.e physicality)  that he doesnt think he stands much of a chance 
not playing under the same kind of pressure
How does that make any sense when he's just won the Australian Open and two Masters Titles?
because he wasnt withdrawing from other tournaments to focus purely on winning those titles
there was no added pressure to win by "sacrificing" anything else or at the expense of withdrawing from other tournaments simply to win those tournaments 
dont get me wrong,im not saying his decision to skip the whole clay season is wrong or right,all im saying is that focusing purely on winning wimbledon will be added pressure
We'll have to disagree. Wimbledon is always the core of his year, it is always the event he sets out to win above all else. It is always the biggest disappointment when he loses. I see little or no impact from what he does elsewhere, except arguably he will have the satisfaction of knowing he's given himself the best chance by skipping most if not all of the clay season.

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Re: Federer sacrificing #1?

Post by Tenez on Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:30 am

I had a thought that Fed was not playing on clay, including throwing doubt on the FO as a way to put pressure on sponsors while renegotiating his contracts.

I woudl not be surprised if sponsors were giving up on him before 2017(no strong ad on his new racquet, still black with no particular special features etc...) and with his new results, he suddenly is in a position to heavily cash on his success one last time.

Those 8 weeks break may be a good time to rest but also put pressure on his sponsors to negotiate the most advantageous contracts.


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Re: Federer sacrificing #1?

Post by Veejay on Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:04 pm

bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:i personally think that right now there are far more players that he could potentially lose to at wimbledon then there would be at RG
I think we're now into strange territory if you are trying to suggest his chances of winning Wimbledon are lower than Roland Garros. If you're not, and it is possible to see that other meaning, then it's an irrelevant comment. If you are then you're just plain wrong all over.

There are far more players who could drag him into very long, arduous matches on clay, something that could - not would, but could - see the end of his career. This is what matters more than winning or losing an event. He will, like every other player, enter any event more likely to lose than win. 

I'd be happy to see him play at RG. I'm sorry he isn't playing every event, but I'd be even sorrier if if blew his fitness and we had a re-run of 2016, possibly leading to imminent retirement.
im not trying to speculate what his chances are of winning either tournament,what i am trying to say is that i believe that currently the depth in field is much tighter on grass then it is on clay
these are the players i could see federer losing to at RG
nadal,murray,djokovic and wawrinka...i cant really see anyone else really troubling him there
on grass that list would extend to
raonic,tsonga,kyrgios possibly even berdych.if anyone of those players get really hot they could pose a serious threat

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Re: Federer sacrificing #1?

Post by Veejay on Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:12 pm

bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
bogbrush wrote:So.... exactly the same pressure he'd have if he was playing the clay season.

I just don't get the connection between not playing clay and adding pressure.
because youre focusing purely on 1 title,youre putting everything into it,so if something goes wrong it will end up being a huge disappointment 
its like betting everything you have on winning 1 title  
focusing completely on the grass season means that theres an expectation to win or do really well
not playing the clay season suggests ( could be wrong i.e physicality)  that he doesnt think he stands much of a chance 
not playing under the same kind of pressure
How does that make any sense when he's just won the Australian Open and two Masters Titles?
because he wasnt withdrawing from other tournaments to focus purely on winning those titles
there was no added pressure to win by "sacrificing" anything else or at the expense of withdrawing from other tournaments simply to win those tournaments 
dont get me wrong,im not saying his decision to skip the whole clay season is wrong or right,all im saying is that focusing purely on winning wimbledon will be added pressure
We'll have to disagree. Wimbledon is always the core of his year, it is always the event he sets out to win above all else. It is always the biggest disappointment when he loses. I see little or no impact from what he does elsewhere, except arguably he will have the satisfaction of knowing he's given himself the best chance by skipping most if not all of the clay season.
fair enough we can agree to disagree,i still believe that there will be more expetection not just from him on him but possibly from the fans too
if we go by the logic of placing all bets on winning 1 tournament then logically there will me more pressure to win
of course federer has nothing left to prove but withdrawing from other tournaments means that many people including himself would expect him to come back and play to the best of his ability and/or win
not many expected ( probably including himself) him to win the 3 biggest titles of the season so far but now that he has theres far more expectation

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Re: Federer sacrificing #1?

Post by legendkillar on Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:28 am

bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
bogbrush wrote:So.... exactly the same pressure he'd have if he was playing the clay season.

I just don't get the connection between not playing clay and adding pressure.
because youre focusing purely on 1 title,youre putting everything into it,so if something goes wrong it will end up being a huge disappointment 
its like betting everything you have on winning 1 title  
focusing completely on the grass season means that theres an expectation to win or do really well
not playing the clay season suggests ( could be wrong i.e physicality)  that he doesnt think he stands much of a chance 
not playing under the same kind of pressure
How does that make any sense when he's just won the Australian Open and two Masters Titles?
because he wasnt withdrawing from other tournaments to focus purely on winning those titles
there was no added pressure to win by "sacrificing" anything else or at the expense of withdrawing from other tournaments simply to win those tournaments 
dont get me wrong,im not saying his decision to skip the whole clay season is wrong or right,all im saying is that focusing purely on winning wimbledon will be added pressure
We'll have to disagree. Wimbledon is always the core of his year, it is always the event he sets out to win above all else. It is always the biggest disappointment when he loses. I see little or no impact from what he does elsewhere, except arguably he will have the satisfaction of knowing he's given himself the best chance by skipping most if not all of the clay season.


I do recall a discussion recently in which I think it was felt a 2nd FO would be more legacy enhancing than an 8th Wimbledon (providing a greater spread of Slams) given I think his FO 2009 success will largely be perceived as "he won it because Nadal was taken out"

Which in any pub of coffee shop discussion about tennis and it's greatest competitors will always be brought up in trade offs and discussions.

I personally would prefer him to win an 8th Wimbeldon.

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Re: Federer sacrificing #1?

Post by bogbrush on Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:39 am

Me too; and in any case I think it's more feasible.

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Re: Federer sacrificing #1?

Post by legendkillar on Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:53 am

Oh indeed, but also for me to completely streets ahead as the greatest grass player ever, an 8th Wimbledon would crown that off nicely. Something about being tied with Sampras leaves a bitter taste.

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Re: Federer sacrificing #1?

Post by Veejay on Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:13 pm

legendkillar wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
bogbrush wrote:So.... exactly the same pressure he'd have if he was playing the clay season.

I just don't get the connection between not playing clay and adding pressure.
because youre focusing purely on 1 title,youre putting everything into it,so if something goes wrong it will end up being a huge disappointment 
its like betting everything you have on winning 1 title  
focusing completely on the grass season means that theres an expectation to win or do really well
not playing the clay season suggests ( could be wrong i.e physicality)  that he doesnt think he stands much of a chance 
not playing under the same kind of pressure
How does that make any sense when he's just won the Australian Open and two Masters Titles?
because he wasnt withdrawing from other tournaments to focus purely on winning those titles
there was no added pressure to win by "sacrificing" anything else or at the expense of withdrawing from other tournaments simply to win those tournaments 
dont get me wrong,im not saying his decision to skip the whole clay season is wrong or right,all im saying is that focusing purely on winning wimbledon will be added pressure
We'll have to disagree. Wimbledon is always the core of his year, it is always the event he sets out to win above all else. It is always the biggest disappointment when he loses. I see little or no impact from what he does elsewhere, except arguably he will have the satisfaction of knowing he's given himself the best chance by skipping most if not all of the clay season.


I do recall a discussion recently in which I think it was felt a 2nd FO would be more legacy enhancing than an 8th Wimbledon (providing a greater spread of Slams) given I think his FO 2009 success will largely be perceived as "he won it because Nadal was taken out"

Which in any pub of coffee shop discussion about tennis and it's greatest competitors will always be brought up in trade offs and discussions.

I personally would prefer him to win an 8th Wimbeldon.
winning every major at least twice would seem a greater achievement then adding another wimbledon especially if he were to beat nadal on the way to winning it.that would really be the cherry on the top
but i dont think that even that will silence his critics,therell always be something they'll find to use against him ie. h2h record against nadal or the fact that he didnt win gold a the olympics 
regarding he "he won it because nadal was taken out" 
pathetic desperate thing for anyone to say..should we go back and calculate who would have won what if whoever hadnt been knocked out at every major thats ever been played?

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Re: Federer sacrificing #1?

Post by legendkillar on Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:21 pm

Veejay wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Veejay wrote:
bogbrush wrote:So.... exactly the same pressure he'd have if he was playing the clay season.

I just don't get the connection between not playing clay and adding pressure.
because youre focusing purely on 1 title,youre putting everything into it,so if something goes wrong it will end up being a huge disappointment 
its like betting everything you have on winning 1 title  
focusing completely on the grass season means that theres an expectation to win or do really well
not playing the clay season suggests ( could be wrong i.e physicality)  that he doesnt think he stands much of a chance 
not playing under the same kind of pressure
How does that make any sense when he's just won the Australian Open and two Masters Titles?
because he wasnt withdrawing from other tournaments to focus purely on winning those titles
there was no added pressure to win by "sacrificing" anything else or at the expense of withdrawing from other tournaments simply to win those tournaments 
dont get me wrong,im not saying his decision to skip the whole clay season is wrong or right,all im saying is that focusing purely on winning wimbledon will be added pressure
We'll have to disagree. Wimbledon is always the core of his year, it is always the event he sets out to win above all else. It is always the biggest disappointment when he loses. I see little or no impact from what he does elsewhere, except arguably he will have the satisfaction of knowing he's given himself the best chance by skipping most if not all of the clay season.


I do recall a discussion recently in which I think it was felt a 2nd FO would be more legacy enhancing than an 8th Wimbledon (providing a greater spread of Slams) given I think his FO 2009 success will largely be perceived as "he won it because Nadal was taken out"

Which in any pub of coffee shop discussion about tennis and it's greatest competitors will always be brought up in trade offs and discussions.

I personally would prefer him to win an 8th Wimbeldon.
winning every major at least twice would seem a greater achievement then adding another wimbledon especially if he were to beat nadal on the way to winning it.that would really be the cherry on the top
but i dont think that even that will silence his critics,therell always be something they'll find to use against him ie. h2h record against nadal or the fact that he didnt win gold a the olympics 
regarding he "he won it because nadal was taken out" 
pathetic desperate thing for anyone to say..should we go back and calculate who would have won what if whoever hadnt been knocked out at every major thats ever been played?


Which is why I could see the argument that a FO would add a greater diverse significance to his Slam haul, but being as Wimbledon is as good as it gets, I'd prefer an 8th so that he stands further alone on that echelon.

As for the caveat. I don't like them as much as the next person, but people will always look for any weakness in any achievement. Crikey look at Murray's detractors. Everything he won is asterisked in some way.

I have to say at the FO 2009, I was the opposite. I thought once Nadal went out, the pressure on Federer intensified even more as it was perceived as his to lose. Given what transpired at the FO a year earlier, I never expected Federer to win a FO with Nadal the other side.

But as you said earlier, in 2017 I'd fancy Federer over Nadal. Hence I understand the disappointment should he skip the FO.

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Re: Federer sacrificing #1?

Post by Veejay on Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:32 pm

i think that youre absolutely right about the added pressure to win in 09
he really struggled along the way to that title
i remember that 1 call against haas in the 3rd set which could have given haas the break to serve for the match when roger was 2 sets to love down 
the momentum completely changed in federer's favour after that
he was being handled by del potro in the semi final too..that was another pretty close match that could have gone the other way

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Re: Federer sacrificing #1?

Post by legendkillar on Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:31 pm

Given that at that time, Nadal being out of the French was inconceivable and it was perceived as Roger's one and only chance to win it. For a one shot opportunity, have to say it was great going he won it.

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Re: Federer sacrificing #1?

Post by Tenez on Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:43 pm

I am actualy not sure Wimby is faster than the FO the second week. Look who has been winning on it lately. Sure the first week is fast and slippery for the road runners but as the grass dries up in both senses of the term, the second week makes it ideal for them as the huge balls make it real slow on dirt.

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Re: Federer sacrificing #1?

Post by Veejay on Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:52 pm

i have heard quite a few people say the grass these days plays a lot more like clay in the second week at wimbledon
could be one of the reasons why nadal always seems so vulnerable in the first week but then suddenly seems at home on the surface during the second week

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Re: Federer sacrificing #1?

Post by Tenez on Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:06 pm

Yes and he says so himself.

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