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Cowardly & Brave Tennis - Page 4 Empty Re: Cowardly & Brave Tennis

Post by Tenez on Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:32 pm

I have addressed it but you do not want to see it.

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Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:35 pm

Tenez wrote:I have addressed it but you do not want to see it.
Where?
Is Player B more gutsy than Federer or not?

This was my post:
Amritia3ee wrote:
Becayse Player A is better at tennis than Player B!
So tell me Tenez, who is gutsier, player A or player B?
This can be applied anywhere. Federer vs Haas is an example, suppose on the point where Fed could lose the match he goes for a winner DTL.
He is player A, and because he is so good, he has a 80% chance of getting it (and thus winning the point). Meanwhile Player B can be anyone. He could also be in a similar position against Haas. He also goes for a winner DTL, and the chance of him making it is 20% (he is not as good as Federer).
So tell me Tenez, is Player B's shot not riskier than Federers.
If it is riskier then (according to your flawed notion) is it not more gutsy?
So Player B is more gutsy, in that moment, than Federer...?

I know you are a Federer fan, so you (and ROTLA) could use 'Player A' rather than Federer that would be good, so your emotions don't get in the way here.

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Post by Tenez on Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:41 pm

Your player B is ranked #250, we don't know his name and he is having a good day pulling very risky shots, playing outside of his comfort zone, cause he knows he has not much to lose versus Federer.

I am not sure how your case adds to this discussion.

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Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:44 pm

Tenez wrote:Your player B is ranked #250, we don't know his name and he is having a good day pulling very risky shots, playing outside of his comfort zone, cause he knows he has not much to lose versus Federer.

I am not sure how your case adds to this discussion.
His ranking is highly irrelevant to the question.
He could be world number 20, with a brilliant backhand and terrible forehand. But still irrelevant.

Is he more gutsy, in the example I showed, than Federer? (Edit: I'm not saying these 2 players have to be up against each other. They could both be playing Player C).

It's a yes or no answer.
I'm not Jeremy Paxman, but certainly you have the skills of a politician Winking

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Post by noleisthebest on Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:47 pm

Amri,
Unfortunately, there is nothing theoretical about tennis. I wish it was. I'd be a multiple Wimbledon champion Cowardly & Brave Tennis - Page 4 123628122

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Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:50 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Amri,
Unfortunately, there is nothing theoretical about tennis. I wish it was. I'd be a multiple Wimbledon champion Cowardly & Brave Tennis - Page 4 123628122
What are you talking about NITB?? :chin:
What's theoretical or not theoretical here. I don't understand you here.

I'm using a real life possibility, just because I'm calling them Player A and Player B doesn't mean this situation can't happen.
In-fact I'm actually specifically talking about the Federer vs Haas match Tenez was talking about earlier.


Last edited by Amritia3ee on Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by laverfan on Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:50 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Amri,
Unfortunately, there is nothing theoretical about tennis. I wish it was. I'd be a multiple Wimbledon champion Cowardly & Brave Tennis - Page 4 123628122

So a single W title still leaves a lot be desired? Winking

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Post by laverfan on Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:55 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Amri, any news on Nadal's return?
I went to Wooffie's website, but it's all Rafa in various underwear, it's getting ebarrassing Cowardly & Brave Tennis - Page 4 2998105013

Perhaps this link would be a better resource.

Your inability to distinguish between Wooffie and Nadal is disturbing. Please be careful. Somersault

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Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:57 pm

Of course things are theoretical in tennis.
That's what tactics is about. If Nadal always hit to Federer's FH would he have the same success rate? If Federer stood 4m behind the baseline and moonballed would he have the same success rate? If Murray tried to S&V on every point would he have the same results? Of course there's theory, tactics.

All highly irrelevant to this discussion.
The notion is that riskier tennis is more gutsy. So is Player B (whose shot is riskier as it has a lower chance of going in) more gutsy than Player A??
Simple yes and no question, this is like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwlsd8RAoqI

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Post by Tenez on Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:58 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:His ranking is highly irrelevant to the question.
He could be world number 20, with a brilliant backhand and terrible forehand. But still irrelevant.

Is he more gutsy, in the example I showed, than Federer? (Edit: I'm not saying these 2 players have to be up against each other. They could both be playing Player C).

His ranking is relevant cause if he plays like the nber 20 or 250 and has not much to lose, "gutsy" doesn't quite apply there.


It's a yes or no answer.

You keep trying to differenciate between execution, confidence, talent, guts...etc...For me it's very much linked, like you cannot be a defending player without being extremely fit, or run very fast. Well you can but then ranking becomes very relevant cause you won't find many at the top.

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Post by noleisthebest on Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:59 pm

laverfan wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:Amri,
Unfortunately, there is nothing theoretical about tennis. I wish it was. I'd be a multiple Wimbledon champion Cowardly & Brave Tennis - Page 4 123628122

So a single W title still leaves a lot be desired? Cowardly & Brave Tennis - Page 4 1071211947

oh, you have to ruin everything....It was meant to be a metaphor....

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Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:07 pm

Tenez wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:His ranking is highly irrelevant to the question.
He could be world number 20, with a brilliant backhand and terrible forehand. But still irrelevant.

Is he more gutsy, in the example I showed, than Federer? (Edit: I'm not saying these 2 players have to be up against each other. They could both be playing Player C).

His ranking is relevant cause if he plays like the nber 20 or 250 and has not much to lose, "gutsy" doesn't quite apply there.
So you now agree that if a player plays with a 'nothing to lose' mentality, then 'gutsy' doesn't apply. I've been saying that for a while Tenez, I've been saying that for a while.

OK, so let's remove these external variables. My fault really I should have made it clear. To do a fair test, all the variables must be the same (apart from the one you are testing).
So: they are in exactly the same position.
In the 5th set of a Final of USO. 7-7 all in the final set tie-breaker. Then both players certainly have a lot of pressure on them.
Who would be gutsier to play the FH DTL in that situation, Player A or Player B?


Last edited by Amritia3ee on Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:16 pm; edited 4 times in total

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Post by noleisthebest on Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:10 pm

Risky play is gutsy. Full stop. If you don't believe me, try it for yourself.

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Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:12 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Risky play is gutsy. Full stop. If you don't believe me, try it for yourself.
OK, then.
The more talented you are, and the more precise and accurate you are... the less risk you have of missing a shot.

So you agree that Player B, in the same situation as Player A, would be gutsier than Player A, while playing exactly the same shot, because the risk of him missing is more.
Either you accept that, or you are contradicting yourself.

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Post by noleisthebest on Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:17 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:Risky play is gutsy. Full stop. If you don't believe me, try it for yourself.
OK, then.
The more talented you are, and the more precise and accurate you are... the less risk you have of missing a shot.

So you agree that Player B, in the same situation as Player A, would be gutsier than Player A, while playing exactly the same shot, because the risk of him missing is more.
Either you accept that, or you are contradicting yourself.

This is not a debate about the nuances of gutsiness. You either play gutsy or not. Irrelevant of how good you are. Two gutsy players playing against each other may look one more gutsy than the other because he/she is more successful, but the approach of both is the same.

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Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:22 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
This is not a debate about the nuances of gutsiness. You either play gutsy or not.
You're not getting the point of this. What makes a play gutsy? The risk of you missing?? Or is it just for the sake of it. Read what SB has been saying all along.

noleisthebest wrote:
Irrelevant of how good you are. Two gutsy players playing against each other may look one more gutsy than the other because he/she is more successful
Yes but the risk of you missing is much greater if you are not as good at that particular shot (the one you are playing).

SB was spot on earlier, people are getting their ideologies confused with tennis. The parallel does not apply.

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Post by noleisthebest on Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:26 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:
You're not getting the point of this. What makes a play gutsy? The risk of you missing?? Or is it just for the sake of it. Read what SB has been saying all along.


Yes but the risk of you missing is much greater if you are not as good at that particular shot (the one you are playing).

SB was spot on earlier, people are getting their ideologies confused with tennis. The parallel does not apply.

Going forward is gutsy. I can't explain it any simpler than that.
I don't know what ideology you are talking about.

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Post by Tenez on Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:28 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:Risky play is gutsy. Full stop. If you don't believe me, try it for yourself.
OK, then.
The more talented you are, and the more precise and accurate you are... the less risk you have of missing a shot.

So you agree that Player B, in the same situation as Player A, would be gutsier than Player A, while playing exactly the same shot, because the risk of him missing is more.
Either you accept that, or you are contradicting yourself.

Honestly, you go in circle with impossible case scenarios. We have discussed it many times already. There is a gap between gutsy and stupid shot. If the player B got to 5 all 5th set by having only 20% chance to his a DTL winner, it means he has not used it much to get to 5 all. THerefore he would be a bit stupid to try it at 5 all in the 5th set cause his chances would be even smaller with tiredness and pressure. BUT it could be gutsy as well, trying his luck, despite having more chance to win the points by other means which led him to 5 all in the 5th...so what? what is the point?

The point is you are trying to negate gutsy play at all cost and I can only assume that's because yuo are a Nadal fan trying to justify his standing 4m behind teh baseline.

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Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:31 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:
You're not getting the point of this. What makes a play gutsy? The risk of you missing?? Or is it just for the sake of it. Read what SB has been saying all along.


Yes but the risk of you missing is much greater if you are not as good at that particular shot (the one you are playing).

SB was spot on earlier, people are getting their ideologies confused with tennis. The parallel does not apply.

Going forward is gutsy. I can't explain it any simpler than that.
I don't know what ideology you are talking about.
Going forward??
So what happens if he is behind the baseline at plays a dropshot? Is that not gutsy? Or if he tries to hit a cross-court winner from behind the baseline??

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Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:34 pm

Tenez wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:Risky play is gutsy. Full stop. If you don't believe me, try it for yourself.
OK, then.
The more talented you are, and the more precise and accurate you are... the less risk you have of missing a shot.

So you agree that Player B, in the same situation as Player A, would be gutsier than Player A, while playing exactly the same shot, because the risk of him missing is more.
Either you accept that, or you are contradicting yourself.
There is a gap between gutsy and stupid shot. If the player B got to 5 all 5th set by having only 20% chance to his a DTL winner, it means he has not used it much to get to 5 all. THerefore he would be a bit stupid to try it at 5 all in the 5th set cause his chances would be even smaller with tiredness and pressure. BUT it could be gutsy as well, trying his luck, despite having more chance to win the points by other means which led him to 5 all in the 5th...so what?
See, there we go!
We're getting somewhere.

This is the whole point of the article. You're saying it could be stupid.. but then you say it could be gutsy...
Which is it Tenez? Stupid or gutsy? Certainly it is the riskier play, but if he gets it in he wins the point.

What's so risky about an on fire Player A hitting a winner? He's so good, that when he plays an attacking shot he's practically certain of hitting it perfectly. He has stunning accuracy you see. Not much risk involved, no?


Last edited by Amritia3ee on Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:24 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post by noleisthebest on Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:37 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:


What's so gutsy about an on fire Federer hitting a winner? If he's so good then he'll get it in. Not much risk involved, no?

Cowardly & Brave Tennis - Page 4 2474333020

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Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:39 pm

NITB.. I've now edited it and rephrased it better.
Apologies for that.

If I use names then people get emotions into it.. and it all gets heated.
Let's stick to Player A Thumbs Up

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Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:44 pm

Remember Roger fans.. I am not saying Roger is not brave etc.

What I am saying is that this notion and stereotypes about 'risky means gutsy' are totally flawed, and hence lead you to wrong conclusions.

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Post by noleisthebest on Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:46 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:Remember Roger fans.. I am not saying Roger is not brave etc.

What I am saying is that this notion and stereotypes about 'risky means gutsy' are totally flawed, and hence lead you to wrong conclusions.

I think I get the message, Amri Cowardly & Brave Tennis - Page 4 1071211947

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Post by Larry Ellison on Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:47 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:Remember Roger fans.. I am not saying Roger is not brave etc.

What I am saying is that this notion and stereotypes about 'risky means gutsy' are totally flawed, and hence lead you to wrong conclusions.

I think I get the message, Amri Cowardly & Brave Tennis - Page 4 1071211947
I don't want Roger fans to become angry and think I am saying he is not gutsy. Winking
I was just clearing up that I'm arguing the notion, not that Federer is gutsy/ not gutsy! (For the record I think Federer is a very brave and courageous character!)


Last edited by Amritia3ee on Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by noleisthebest on Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:50 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:Remember Roger fans.. I am not saying Roger is not brave etc.

What I am saying is that this notion and stereotypes about 'risky means gutsy' are totally flawed, and hence lead you to wrong conclusions.

I think I get the message, Amri Cowardly & Brave Tennis - Page 4 1071211947
I don't want Roger fans to become angry and think I am saying he is not gutsy. Cowardly & Brave Tennis - Page 4 1071211947
I was just clearing it up I'm arguing the notion, not that Federer is gutsy/ not gutsy!

We are talking about tennis styles, not players and their characters.
But since you seem to insist.... is he or is he not..... Cowardly & Brave Tennis - Page 4 123628122

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Post by laverfan on Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:04 am

Tenez wrote:Berdych is famous for melting on important point...which is kind of normal as he goes for broke.

Berdych has been around for many years with quite a bit of experience. The inability to adjust to conditions is very peculiar for a player who is in Top 10. Yikes

Perhaps 'stupid' is a more appropriate label rather than 'gutsy'. Do you agree?

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Post by Larry Ellison on Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:12 am

laverfan wrote:
Tenez wrote:Berdych is famous for melting on important point...which is kind of normal as he goes for broke.

Berdych has been around for many years with quite a bit of experience. The inability to adjust to conditions is very peculiar for a player who is in Top 10. Yikes

Perhaps 'stupid' is a more appropriate label rather than 'gutsy'. Do you agree?
No LF Berdych is not stupid.

He has a high ball toss which gets affected by the wind. He is a tall guy, his game is based around his serve.
In still conditions he has a massive serve, he can't change his service actions just for windy days.
He also plays with a lower margin for error than Murray, so he could adjust his game, but it would be unnatural for him, unlike Murray whose game's margin is already higher (ie he does not have to adjust that much). Surely you can see this.

Anyway this is totally off-topic.

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Post by Larry Ellison on Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:22 am

Summerblues, I know you will be on here in a few hours time.
Certainly there has been a lot of debate, and a lot for you to sieve through Whistle

As for my part, main main arguments are summed up in: (also read the quoted bits):
6:43 PM (Page 3)
11:34 PM (Page 4)

Should save you a bit of time Winking

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:39 am

Amritia3ee wrote:Summerblues, I know you will be on here in a few hours time.
Certainly there has been a lot of debate, and a lot for you to sieve through Cowardly & Brave Tennis - Page 4 123628122

As for my part, main main arguments are summed up in: (also read the quoted bits):
6:43 PM (Page 3)
11:34 PM (Page 4)

Should save you a bit of time Cowardly & Brave Tennis - Page 4 1071211947

I bet SB is kicking himself for starting all this in the first place Cowardly & Brave Tennis - Page 4 4006036031

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Post by summerblues on Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:17 am

noleisthebest wrote:I bet SB is kicking himself for starting all this in the first place Cowardly & Brave Tennis - Page 4 4006036031

Hehe. I have actually found many posts on this thread interesting and informative. Specifically, I do feel I now understand better how you, rotla and tenez view this topic - and I can even see some nuanced differences between the three of you that I would have not been aware of otherwise. Do I now agree with your viewpoints? No. Has it been interesting to read your views? Certainly.

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Post by summerblues on Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:21 am

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:SB, l would only say that we both watch tennis differently and we both are right in our own ways. Cowardly & Brave Tennis - Page 4 3157886161 ...I don't see I have anything else to debate on this topic.

Fair enough. Thanks for your posts, I really appreciated your waterfall example.

PS. just to clarify somewhat and make sure I do not get misunderstood, I am not saying risky shots are always stupid...I would not be a Federer fan otherwise smiley

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Post by summerblues on Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:29 am

laverfan wrote:In your fire example case, what happens if one later finds out that Mr X himself had set fire to the building to become a hero, and he is an arsonist or a pyromaniac. Your initial impression of 'gutsiness' is now being diluted after the incident based on information that becomes available.

Two examples in the Tennis world come to mind which are similar, Rosol v Nadal and Rosol's subsequent loss to Kohlschreiber, or Berdych v Federer and Berdych's subsequent loss to Murray, both under different circumstances.

Did Rosol and Berdych become less 'gutsy' in a matter of days? Cowardly & Brave Tennis - Page 4 1071211947

Yes, very much agree with this take on things. Somehow we had missed this angle in our discussions up to now, but the term gutsiness etc is quite often applied based on the outcome. Say player serves a second serve ace when break point down - voila, he is gutsy. But if he double faults in the same situation, he is a choker, even though in reality it may well be that in both cases player just took a chance and in one of them the luck was on his side and in the other one it was not.

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Post by summerblues on Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:45 am

Amritia3ee wrote:Summerblues, I know you will be on here in a few hours time.
Certainly there has been a lot of debate, and a lot for you to sieve through Cowardly & Brave Tennis - Page 4 123628122

As for my part, main main arguments are summed up in: (also read the quoted bits):
6:43 PM (Page 3)
11:34 PM (Page 4)

Should save you a bit of time Cowardly & Brave Tennis - Page 4 1071211947

You and I are seeing this topic from a pretty similar angle (hence I do not have much in a way of response to your posts).

Just wait until Nadal is back in action - I suspect we will be able to find more points of disagreement then smiley

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Post by summerblues on Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:55 am

Amritia3ee wrote:No LF Berdych is not stupid.

He has a high ball toss which gets affected by the wind. He is a tall guy, his game is based around his serve.
In still conditions he has a massive serve, he can't change his service actions just for windy days.
He also plays with a lower margin for error than Murray, so he could adjust his game, but it would be unnatural for him, unlike Murray whose game's margin is already higher (ie he does not have to adjust that much). Surely you can see this.

Anyway this is totally off-topic.

Yes this has veered somewhat off-topic but still: I agree with LF's argument here (mind you, I do not think she actually meant that Berdych was really stupid). She has made this argument a few times at the USO. Tennis has largely been an outdoors sport and as such is bound to be impacted by outside conditions. It is up to each player to build their game in a way that works for an outdoors sport. If a player's game works beautifully in perfect conditions but tends to suffer in outdoors conditions, they have themselves to blame.

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:03 am

summerblues wrote:
Yes, very much agree with this take on things. Somehow we had missed this angle in our discussions up to now, but the term gutsiness etc is quite often applied based on the outcome. Say player serves a second serve ace when break point down - voila, he is gutsy. But if he double faults in the same situation, he is a choker, even though in reality it may well be that in both cases player just took a chance and in one of them the luck was on his side and in the other one it was not.

Wrong. A player is gutsy regardless of whether the ball goes in or out. The outcome does not determine the intention, it's the other way round.

Double fault does not imply a server goes for an ace btw.

Alternately, you have the "a bird in a hand is worth two on a bush" attitude which works fine in life, but as I said before, the game of tennis gives you the luxury of going for two in a bush.

It's a different dimension.

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Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:26 am

laverfan wrote:There is a perception that the higher the risk of failure, the more 'gutsy' a shot is.

For an attacking player, who practices such shots, the risk is lower with practice, so why is it more 'gutsy'?

Practice doesn't lower the risk of a shot. Practice increase a player's chances of success in playing that shot. But the risk involved remains the same.

Understand the difference.

I'll elaborate it if you still haven't understood.


Last edited by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:10 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : trying to be nice in my choice of words)

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Post by Tenez on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:55 am

summerblues wrote:Yes, very much agree with this take on things. Somehow we had missed this angle in our discussions up to now, but the term gutsiness etc is quite often applied based on the outcome. Say player serves a second serve ace when break point down - voila, he is gutsy. But if he double faults in the same situation, he is a choker, even though in reality it may well be that in both cases player just took a chance and in one of them the luck was on his side and in the other one it was not.

That's why knowing how to read the game is important.

1 - Was the second serve pushed long?

2 - Was the second serve pushed short?

3 - Was the second served hit firmly with spin but slighly out

4 - Was the second server hit firmly with spin and angle but caught the net.

5 - Was the second serve hit hard and flat?

6 - Did that DF happen at MP up or MP down?

7 - etc...etc



At the end of the day one watches and can say gutsy or not, nervous or not, one connoisseur can even get it wrong but he will be most likely able to see guts and fears better than any of those theoritcial debates could explain.

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Post by Larry Ellison on Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:03 pm

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
laverfan wrote:There is a perception that the higher the risk of failure, the more 'gutsy' a shot is.

For an attacking player, who practices such shots, the risk is lower with practice, so why is it more 'gutsy'?

Practice doesn't lower the risk of a shot. Practice increase a player's chances of success in playing that shot. But the risk involved remains the same.

Understand the difference.

I'll elaborate it if you still haven't understood.

If the chance of success is increased, then the risk of not succeeding is less, am I right??

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Post by laverfan on Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:38 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
summerblues wrote:
Yes, very much agree with this take on things. Somehow we had missed this angle in our discussions up to now, but the term gutsiness etc is quite often applied based on the outcome. Say player serves a second serve ace when break point down - voila, he is gutsy. But if he double faults in the same situation, he is a choker, even though in reality it may well be that in both cases player just took a chance and in one of them the luck was on his side and in the other one it was not.

Wrong. A player is gutsy regardless of whether the ball goes in or out. The outcome does not determine the intention, it's the other way round.

Double fault does not imply a server goes for an ace btw.

Alternately, you have the "a bird in a hand is worth two on a bush" attitude which works fine in life, but as I said before, the game of tennis gives you the luxury of going for two in a bush.

It's a different dimension.

The cumulative gutsiness over a career needs to be kept separate from 'gutsiness' of the day. My question was very specifically designed to say that players may still remain gutsy over a career, but stupid on match of the day, like Berdych v Murray or Rosol v Kohlschreiber.

The clip of the Rosol v Nadal shows a noticeable difference compared to usual Nadal matches.

Let me provide a single stat which seems odd to me. Aces - Rosol 22, Nadal 19. Hitting aces past a 6'5" player in the zone is very interesting.

http://www.wimbledon.com/en_GB/scores/stats/day11/1232ms.html

Adding ROTLA to this point... now let us look at 'absolute riskiness of shot' vs 'aggregate practice effectiveness index' and see what this specific stat falls under.

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:56 pm

laverfan wrote:

The cumulative gutsiness over a career needs to be kept separate from 'gutsiness' of the day. My question was very specifically designed to say that players may still remain gutsy over a career, but stupid on match of the day, like Berdych v Murray or Rosol v Kohlschreiber.

.

Why does it need to be kept separate?
This is a discussion on the concept not a bad hair day.

BTW, what do you mean by "stupid"?

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Post by Larry Ellison on Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:14 pm

summerblues wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:Summerblues, I know you will be on here in a few hours time.
Certainly there has been a lot of debate, and a lot for you to sieve through Cowardly & Brave Tennis - Page 4 123628122

As for my part, main main arguments are summed up in: (also read the quoted bits):
6:43 PM (Page 3)
11:34 PM (Page 4)

Should save you a bit of time Cowardly & Brave Tennis - Page 4 1071211947

You and I are seeing this topic from a pretty similar angle.

Just wait until Nadal is back in action - I suspect we will be able to find more points of disagreement then smiley
Lol indeed Bubbly

It's just a case of keeping a clear mind, and thinking it through properly, rather than allowing yourself to get carried away on generalisations and clichés. Thumbs Up

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Post by laverfan on Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:22 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
laverfan wrote:

The cumulative gutsiness over a career needs to be kept separate from 'gutsiness' of the day. My question was very specifically designed to say that players may still remain gutsy over a career, but stupid on match of the day, like Berdych v Murray or Rosol v Kohlschreiber.

.

Why does it need to be kept separate?
This is a discussion on the concept not a bad hair day.

BTW, what do you mean by "stupid"?

Does the concept wax and wane like phases of the Moon(ball)? Laugh

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Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:14 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:
raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
laverfan wrote:There is a perception that the higher the risk of failure, the more 'gutsy' a shot is.

For an attacking player, who practices such shots, the risk is lower with practice, so why is it more 'gutsy'?

Practice doesn't lower the risk of a shot. Practice increase a player's chances of success in playing that shot. But the risk involved remains the same.

Understand the difference.

I'll elaborate it if you still haven't understood.

If the chance of success is increased, then the risk of not succeeding is less, am I right??
No you aren't? I'll explain it tomorrow.

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Post by noleisthebest on Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:48 pm

Chris Evert on L. Robson. Interesting comment highly pertinent to our thread:


“What impressed me so much was that she
was fearless and consistent. It’s easy to be fearless and to spray balls
around. But she was fearless, and she kept her levels of consistency so
high....If she gets to the Top 5, she’ll be capable of winning a Slam. I
wouldn’t bet my life on it, but it’s definitely possible.”

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Post by Tenez on Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:02 pm

Yes, so the pros also talk about being fearless....meaning they consider some being fearful.

It's simply common sense but it seems soooooo complicated nowadays to acknowledge "common sense"

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Post by laverfan on Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:40 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Chris Evert on L. Robson. Interesting comment highly pertinent to our thread:


“What impressed me so much was that she
was fearless and consistent
. It’s easy to be fearless and to spray balls
around. But she was fearless, and she kept her levels of consistency so
high....
If she gets to the Top 5, she’ll be capable of winning a Slam. I
wouldn’t bet my life on it, but it’s definitely possible.”

Sound-byte interpretations are just that.

Fearlessness also requires corresponding consistency which is the missing ingredient for long-term success. That is a key difference between, say, Federer and Rosol. Winking

Rosol v Nadal had a very consistent hitting performance from Rosol.

Fearlessness by itself is of no long-term use, even though one can win the match-of-the-day.

BTW, Robson lost to Su-Wei Hsieh in Guangzhou final. She needs more consistency.

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Post by laverfan on Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:41 pm

Tenez wrote:Yes, so the pros also talk about being fearless....meaning they consider some being fearful.

It's simply common sense but it seems soooooo complicated nowadays to acknowledge "common sense"

Name a pro who calls a tennis player fearful and we can discuss that further. Spectator interpretations are highly subjective.

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Post by Tenez on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:17 pm

Wilander?

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