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Oz open prediction game - Day 3!

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Re: Oz open prediction game - Day 3!

Post by Veejay on Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:51 pm

NITB wrote:
Veejay wrote:
NITB wrote:I don't know what's going on...all latent Nadal fans coming out of closet! Yikes

Rotla must love Nadal because he is trying to play his FH and is finding it tough hence admiration (don't worry rotla, you'd probably be btter than Nadal if you had Toni to flog you from the age of 4! Winking )

And Vee, who must admire Nadal's steroid physique.
I remember Vee mentionining trying to get the beach body a few years ago hehe.

But Vee, I told you even then....girls don't like fake muscles, even Serena is marrying a natural looking guy. Big Grin
whats your obsession with me and serena NITB?
it seems to be keeping you awake at night...
its obviously killing you that sharapova was caught and banned while serena is about to break records...
Laugh

You are a scream, Vee!

I always thought youmare crazy about Serena, esp after posting that "shaking booty" clip...
Why would anyone do that unless they like it?

That aside, I REEEEEAAAALLLLY don't care about women's tennis, esp Serena and Sharapova.
Serena is a good player but far too irritating with her dramatics on court.

Off court it's even more desperate..and I don't look for it, just see headlines as I look through tennis news.

Sharapova is just as obnoxious, but slightly less in your face.

My interest in women's died when Henin retired, though there are still a few decent players I don't mind watching - Jankovic, Kuznetsova...loved Batoli, too.

when henin retired?  Laugh
yes that right she "retired" just weeks before RG where she was favourite to win the title
if i remember correctly her excuse was stress  Laugh
so why do you keep giving me grief over serena when henin most likely served a 2 year ban from the sport

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Re: Oz open prediction game - Day 3!

Post by Veejay on Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:54 pm

NITB wrote:
Veejay wrote:
Tenez wrote:
Veejay wrote:
Jahu wrote:I will agree that fitness will help you mentally, as your mind then knows or is convinced that your body can take a 6h GS match, but not that it comes only if you are fit.

I like these hand in hand Tenez/NITB coordinated/orchestrated ideas here, backing each other, nice school couple they would make   Laugh Love Blush Love Blush
of course fitness can help mental strength but there is a very big difference between saying that fitness can help mental strength and saying mental strength can only ever come from fitness
We are talking about physical sport here, right? Hence it is completely linked, no choice. One needs a weapon to feel "confident". If you have don;t have weapons you cannot feel confident (well you can but then you look delusional a bit).
mental strength in sport can come from a number of things,fitness is only one of them
confidence can be a trait that youre born with or even acquired
The question for you is: would Nadal be confident without his steroid muscles?
Yes or no?
thats debatable cause confidence can come from a lot different of things,can steroids help boost your confidence? absolutely,but i cant say that it guarantees confidence cause every single person in the world is different

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Re: Oz open prediction game - Day 3!

Post by Tenez on Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:57 pm

Veejay wrote:pat cash once said that federers air of invincibility used to get half the job done,i think im going to agree with him rather then you tenez
Ah because Cash said that ....once, you will not allow yourself to reflect?
This air of invicibility is only good if you are invicible. If a new kid on the block comes and has weapon to beat him then this air of invicibility will be of no help as we found out with Nadal....like Nadal found out versus Djoko, etc..etc....

what does a person physique have to do with whats going on in their head?
Please jump onto a boxing ring versus heavyweight boxer and let me know "what's going on in your head". Or jump on a bike and try to win the TDF at all cost as if your life depended on it....and again let me know how your mind feels about it.

im really just talking about nadal when he was 17/18/19 not his entire career
Are you saying his mind declined too? Big Grin

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Re: Oz open prediction game - Day 3!

Post by Tenez on Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:04 pm

Andy: 'I know how teenager Rublev felt'

Facing Rublev did give me a few flashbacks to when I was first starting out.

I played Rafael Nadal when I was 19 at the 2007 Australian Open. Going out for the first time against one of the top players does influence the way you play.

I expected Rublev to come out going for his shots, because he had nothing to lose. He got off to a pretty quick start but once I settled down, I played some good stuff. He's a good player though and definitely one to watch in the future.

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Re: Oz open prediction game - Day 3!

Post by Veejay on Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:17 pm

Tenez wrote:
Veejay wrote:pat cash once said that federers air of invincibility used to get half the job done,i think im going to agree with him rather then you tenez
Ah because Cash said that ....once, you will not allow yourself to reflect?
This air of invicibility is only good if you are invicible. If a new kid on the block comes and has weapon to beat him then this air of invicibility will be of no help as we found out with Nadal....like Nadal found out versus Djoko, etc..etc....

what does a person physique have to do with whats going on in their head?
Please jump onto a boxing ring versus heavyweight boxer and let me know "what's going on in your head". Or jump on a bike and try to win the TDF at all cost as if your life depended on it....and again let me know how your mind feels about it.

im really just talking about nadal when he was 17/18/19 not his entire career
Are you saying his mind declined too? Big Grin
so your entire argument is based of nadal being fearless because of his physique?
so if i walked into the darkness as a child,that fearlessness ( that most kids have of the dark)  would come from my physique or because of my physique and not my mind? 
you dont seem to understand that a person can be fearless regardless of anything,we are not talking about results,we are just talking about not being afraid or intimidated by anything

mind declined? if you want to call it that...most players collect mental baggage throughout their careers,especially if you keep losing to the same player
i maintain my opinion that rafael nadal is a rare case,
i remember him losing 07 wimbledon when he came so close.he really believed that he was going to win,,i didnt,but it was written all over his face so i maintain my opinion and nothing you can say will change that
sorry tenez

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Re: Oz open prediction game - Day 3!

Post by Veejay on Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:04 am

Tenez wrote:Andy: 'I know how teenager Rublev felt'

Facing Rublev did give me a few flashbacks to when I was first starting out.

I played Rafael Nadal when I was 19 at the 2007 Australian Open. Going out for the first time against one of the top players does influence the way you play.

I expected Rublev to come out going for his shots, because he had nothing to lose. He got off to a pretty quick start but once I settled down, I played some good stuff. He's a good player though and definitely one to watch in the future.
andy murray is not rafael nadal
how many times does one have to say that the argument is that rafael nadal is a rare exception
thats the whole point of the argument
so why then use andy murray as an example rather then rafael nadal?

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Re: Oz open prediction game - Day 3!

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:48 am

Tenez wrote:Nah Vee. You should know mental strength is completely dependant on fitness. If you have no fear jumping on a ring versus Mike Tyson without being physically prepared you are not strong mentally, you are a fool. I have seen Rublev enough to see that he is a fearless player just over agressive. But that's the right attitude to have cause with maturity it should pay off.

This confidence and mental strength based of physicality can ONLY come when one has had many wins against the opponents. You and NITB are very wrong about Nadal here, you have been making physical fitness as some kind of measurable in units and that's written on the player's Bio even before a match.  

Nadal has 200 units of fitness, his opponent has only 80  and its all written in their bio data and since Nadal knows about it already, he can be completely confident and fearless facing the opponent no matter what is Nadal's experience on tour or the  quality/rank of opponent.  

Very wrong here.

Nadal defeated Fed on HC in 2004 in their first meeting. Did you see that match? No ordinary 17yo could play the way he did against Fed who back then was slicing his opponents into pieces. Did you read Fed's comments after that match?

Nadal as 18 yo had nothing to show before the 2005 clay season. Its impossible that he can draw enormous confidence and mental strength just because he looked fitter.

 But despite that did you see the manner in which defeated the well established 2004 RG finalist clay courter  defending champion Coria? 2 Masters win on clay before doing anything great on tour and that confidence based on physicality? No way.  

He lost to Fed in Miami 2005 being 2-0 sets up and was a set down in RG semis, and yet he comes back to win it. ANy other 19yo player would have folded into a trash ball at that point being a set down to Fed. But not Nadal. And you think Nadal could do it caused he completely "knew" about his physical superiority on Fed?

What was Nadal's experience on tour at the start of 2005 clay season? Barely anything much. So where can be draw this confidence based on physicality. Its not a measurable quantity that you are trying to make it look like.

 He was incredibly fearless for his age. With experience he may have gained confidence based on his supreme physicality and wins made it all stronger, but he certainly didn't have this initially. And yet he was dispatching well established players.

No young player since then has been able to consistently show this 

Rublev right now is miles behind what Nadal was as a teen, just on mental strength. Not saying he can't get there, he can, but that's a lot of work in progress.

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Re: Oz open prediction game - Day 3!

Post by Tenez on Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:44 am

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:This confidence and mental strength based of physicality can ONLY come when one has had many wins against the opponents. You and NITB are very wrong about Nadal here, you have been making physical fitness as some kind of measurable in units and that's written on the player's Bio even before a match.  

Nadal has 200 units of fitness, his opponent has only 80  and its all written in their bio data and since Nadal knows about it already, he can be completely confident and fearless facing the opponent no matter what is Nadal's experience on tour or the  quality/rank of opponent.  

Very wrong here.

Nadal defeated Fed on HC in 2004 in their first meeting. Did you see that match? No ordinary 17yo could play the way he did against Fed who back then was slicing his opponents into pieces. Did you read Fed's comments after that match?

Nadal as 18 yo had nothing to show before the 2005 clay season. Its impossible that he can draw enormous confidence and mental strength just because he looked fitter.

So you are denying that Nadal's fitness was superior to the rest of the field? That's even more wrong. Everybody was and still is talking of his superior fitness. Every single fan, player and commentator was talking about it. So now you dismiss this simple fact and talk about his mental strength. Sorry but without acknowledging the basic facts there is no way we can have a progressive discussion.

 
But despite that did you see the manner in which defeated the well established 2004 RG finalist clay courter  defending champion Coria? 2 Masters win on clay before doing anything great on tour and that confidence based on physicality? No way.  
Do you remember  what Coria said after their long epic matches?

“Nadal is a beast on court, he hits such a heavy ball. Our first two games were very long ones and that took a lot out of me,” said Coria. He said again, "he is a beast, a animal".

Many young players beat reigning champions in the past (Pete, Borg, Wilander, etc.....) but nowadays it is simply much much harder. You cannot compare an era where players like 18yo Wilander with a loopy ugly game could beat older players with today's era. Nadal would simply have no chance today. 10 years on the game has evolved so much physically but also in 10 years players have learnt how to handle big heavy spin.

And I would not put too much stress on the mental strength as a great quality when the game is basic and essentially physical cause there again you have drugs lifting you mentally. Players were talking in the 80s about speed drugs to boost your mind. Noah even accused Becker of taking cocaine and Becker was the typical arrogant, over confident player. We know about Agassi and Meth too.

There is no drug for technique and talent though.

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Re: Oz open prediction game - Day 3!

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:48 am

Tenez you are only proving my point right that you assume physicality as a measurable unit in a player's bio data and can be seen before a match. 

Nadal played the match like a beast. But that was when the match ended. Before the match started what were their credentials. 

How is it possible before the match started that Nadal is so confident only on his physical supremacy to get him wins against established players? This is NOT possible.

MC 2005 final, lets weigh the finalists as the match starts.

1. Nadal (Playing his first TMS final )
Seeded 11
No real credential as a clay courter. He should even lost of 2004 RG Champ Gaudio. But he beats him.

2. Coria
Defending champion. 
RG 2004 finalist who lost closely. 
Already an established cay courter on tour.

Everything is completely stacked against Nadal and an easy win for Coria. But 18yo Nadal turns it around in 4 sets.

A 18 yo who no has big finals experience, can not only stand up to established clay-courters but also beat them. And all he can do it coz he is physically superior?

Sorry mate, that's not true. 

It needed an extremely mentally strong  and fearless player to be able to be the 'beast' facing those guys.

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Re: Oz open prediction game - Day 3!

Post by Tenez on Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:13 am

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Tenez you are only proving my point right that you assume physicality as a measurable unit in a player's bio data and can be seen before a match.
What's your point of that? Sports by definition are ways to measure physical performance. It measures power, stamina in many different ways. That's a non starter I am afraid.

It is much more dubious to measure mental strengh as you do as if Nadal's mental strength was 200 units and others were 80!

Can you see the flaw in your logic?

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Re: Oz open prediction game - Day 3!

Post by legendkillar on Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:22 am

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
Tenez wrote:Nah Vee. You should know mental strength is completely dependant on fitness. If you have no fear jumping on a ring versus Mike Tyson without being physically prepared you are not strong mentally, you are a fool. I have seen Rublev enough to see that he is a fearless player just over agressive. But that's the right attitude to have cause with maturity it should pay off.

This confidence and mental strength based of physicality can ONLY come when one has had many wins against the opponents. You and NITB are very wrong about Nadal here, you have been making physical fitness as some kind of measurable in units and that's written on the player's Bio even before a match.  

Nadal has 200 units of fitness, his opponent has only 80  and its all written in their bio data and since Nadal knows about it already, he can be completely confident and fearless facing the opponent no matter what is Nadal's experience on tour or the  quality/rank of opponent.  

Very wrong here.

Nadal defeated Fed on HC in 2004 in their first meeting. Did you see that match? No ordinary 17yo could play the way he did against Fed who back then was slicing his opponents into pieces. Did you read Fed's comments after that match?

Nadal as 18 yo had nothing to show before the 2005 clay season. Its impossible that he can draw enormous confidence and mental strength just because he looked fitter.

 But despite that did you see the manner in which defeated the well established 2004 RG finalist clay courter  defending champion Coria? 2 Masters win on clay before doing anything great on tour and that confidence based on physicality? No way.  

He lost to Fed in Miami 2005 being 2-0 sets up and was a set down in RG semis, and yet he comes back to win it. ANy other 19yo player would have folded into a trash ball at that point being a set down to Fed. But not Nadal. And you think Nadal could do it caused he completely "knew" about his physical superiority on Fed?

What was Nadal's experience on tour at the start of 2005 clay season? Barely anything much. So where can be draw this confidence based on physicality. Its not a measurable quantity that you are trying to make it look like.

 He was incredibly fearless for his age. With experience he may have gained confidence based on his supreme physicality and wins made it all stronger, but he certainly didn't have this initially. And yet he was dispatching well established players.

No young player since then has been able to consistently show this 

Rublev right now is miles behind what Nadal was as a teen, just on mental strength. Not saying he can't get there, he can, but that's a lot of work in progress.


Been watching this debate and I actually agree with you and Vee.

I recall Moya saying when he met Nadal when he was young, Nadal turned around to him and said "I want to be better than you" so right from a very young age and he had mentality that he was without fear of who he would play in the years that followed.

The thing about mental strength and the "winner's mentality" that is their belief that in every aspect they are the better player. No if's or but's.

Now fitness certainly can reinforce a player's mental strength, but it shouldn't be mistaken that it drives it. It doesn't.

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Re: Oz open prediction game - Day 3!

Post by Veejay on Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:36 pm

i dont know what utter crap tenez is on about
his entire argument basically boils down to this
" im fearless of snakes and other reptiles...it must be because im really fit!!"
"im brave enough to parachute out of an aeroplane...it  must be because of my steroid muscles" 
"im not intimidated by anyone because i run 5 miles a day" 
fear,intimidation,phobias etc..these are all mental things has very little to do with physique 
if you suffered from feeling intimidated,inferior,afraid and lack of confidence,low self esteem etc..what are you going to do?
go to the gym and take steroids or run on the treadmill for 2 hours a day?
or
go see a therapist or hypnotist?
this reminds me of the time i said that murray was talented and tenez tried to prove what little to no talent murray had and how his brother had more talent then him
see i hate nadal and murray as much as anyone but im just keeping it real

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Re: Oz open prediction game - Day 3!

Post by Tenez on Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:15 pm

I am sorry guys but I am a bit disappointed by your lack of arguments. I am providing facts and stats to prove a very observable point and what do you bring in response? "Nadal once said this, Pat Cash once said that....!"" erm Whistle .

Nadal as a 19yo today woudl have no more chance than Coric or any of those other youngsters. Zverev and many other should become much better players than Nadal yet they can;t achieve anything at 19 nowadays. At best they can have a good day and beat him like COric or Kyrgios did but it;s just too physical to make a durable impression. There is way too much to learn now. being good or mentally strong can make a difference but at 25 not at 19.

The average age of the top 10 or even top 20 players has aged 5 years in 10 years!!!! because the game has gone more physical and more professional!!! You did not have a single players in their 20s in the last 8 players of the Doha tournament!!! with an average of 33!!! Stop looking in the past...look at how tougher it is now.


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Re: Oz open prediction game - Day 3!

Post by Daniel on Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:15 pm

Nadal is like Mark Selby in snooker.  They are both lacking talent compared to Federer and O'Sullivan (That's COMPARED TO THOSE TWO), but they succeed because of the playing conditions and because they are VERY rare exceptions at being great at defence consistently.  I think they also need more luck - especially Selby. 

You stick Selby on a table with physically smaller pockets, thicker cloth, and heavier balls - and he will stop winning overnight. O'Sullivan would crucify him under those conditions - because the gap in talent would not be bridged by the conditions.  And same with Nadal - make him use old school wooden racquets, faster balls, and on faster surfaces like the 80s - and he's also fucked.

What I am saying is, their rare form of condition and consistency with the defensive style has come along at the absolute best time to capitalize on dumbed down conditions. Nadal's abnormal physicality would have had much less effect in the 80s than it does now.

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Re: Oz open prediction game - Day 3!

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:05 am

Tenez you have completed failed to recognize that in any era for a 17-18 yo who barely has had big match experiences playing against a top ranked established player is going to be difficult no matter what. 

Such matches are almost always lost by the teen before a single point is played and still he will happily take it as a learning experience and even feel good about making this far. As he gains experience, he will learn to deal with the situation gradually.

This all has nothing to do with which era of tennis is being considered or how mach muscle mass the teen has.

So what Rublev, Zveerev, Coric and other young players are facing right now is NOTHING unusual and is completely normal and accepted.

This is where Nadal was extremely special and like none other teens then on. He wan't gonna lose the match in the locker room and be contented that its a good experience. 

In 2004 as 18yo MC he defeated RG defending champion Gaudio in QF. Remarkable for an 18yo. 99% of teens wouldn't be able able to sick in such a result and lose the next match. But not Nadal, he reaches Semis, beats Gasquet ( who beat Fed in QF ) and the faces Coria the defending MC champion. Any regular teen would be over the moon making this far. but Nadal beats Coria in 4.

Just 2 weeks later he again faced Coria in his 2nd TMS final and goes on to beat him in 5. This is an extraordinary achievement for any teen.

The current teens can't do it, because it takes a mighty teen to do what Nadal as a teen could. These current teens are regular normal teens, not special. They will take their time.

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Re: Oz open prediction game - Day 3!

Post by Daniel on Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:08 am

Worth noting that Nadal wasn't the first to play great at a very young age. It doesn't happen often though (v rare)...  Becker won Wimb at 17.  becker is even more impressive given the slam and the conditions.

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Re: Oz open prediction game - Day 3!

Post by legendkillar on Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:10 am

Tenez wrote:I am sorry guys but I am a bit disappointed by your lack of arguments. I am providing facts and stats to prove a very observable point and what do you bring in response? "Nadal once said this, Pat Cash once said that....!""  erm  Whistle .

Nadal as a 19yo today woudl have no more chance than Coric or any of those other youngsters. Zverev and many other should become much better players than Nadal yet they can;t achieve anything at 19 nowadays. At best they can have a good day and beat him like COric or Kyrgios did but it;s just too physical to make a durable impression. There is way too much to learn now. being good or mentally strong can make a difference but at 25 not at 19.  

The average age of the top 10 or even top 20 players has aged 5 years in 10 years!!!! because the game has gone more physical and more professional!!! You did not have a single players in their 20s in the last 8 players of the Doha tournament!!! with an average of 33!!! Stop looking in the past...look at how tougher it is now.


If I didn't know right, I'd say Daniel hacked your account Winking  Laugh Laugh

Congrats on your 15,000 post btw Thumbs Up

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Re: Oz open prediction game - Day 3!

Post by Tenez on Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:39 am

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:...
This is where Nadal was extremely special and like none other teens then on. He wan't gonna lose the match in the locker room and be contented that its a good experience.
...How do you know Nadal woudl win now at 18 or 19? This is more assumptions from you? He can't even win now that he is at his peak, in fact he is the one losing to youngsters.!!!!

In 2004 as 18yo MC he defeated RG defending champion Gaudio in QF. Remarkable for an 18yo. 99% of teens wouldn't be able able to sick in such a result and lose the next match. But not Nadal, he reaches Semis, beats Gasquet ( who beat Fed in QF ) and the faces Coria the defending MC champion. Any regular teen would be over the moon making this far. but Nadal beats Coria in 4.

You keep saying that eras have nothing to do with mental side but I can give you 20 players like Nadal who won big at an early age prior to 2005 but you can't give names after....I am afraid but tennis evolved since then and if you cannot see it then there is no point discussing this further, especially as you are only providing your "impressions" and not backing it up with facts.

I can tell you that nowadays the only chance for a youngster to do well early would be if he had learnt tennis with a new technology.

No different than in the past in fact except that technology and diet have been the same for the last 10 years.

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Re: Oz open prediction game - Day 3!

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:55 pm

Tenez wrote:...How do you know Nadal woudl win now at 18 or 19? This is more assumptions from you? He can't even win now that he is at his peak, in fact he is the one losing to youngsters.!!!!

And how do you know he wouldn't have? So this is as much assumption by you. But there is a fact that in 2005 he did.

Nadal is now at his peak? ha ha.. He has barely won anything in the almost 3 years and you think he is at his peak..

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Re: Oz open prediction game - Day 3!

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:00 pm

Daniel wrote:Worth noting that Nadal wasn't the first to play great at a very young age. It doesn't happen often though (v rare)...  Becker won Wimb at 17.  becker is even more impressive given the slam and the conditions.

Right. I never said Nadal was the greatest teen to play tennis. I just said that no teen since Nadal on 04-05 has been able to play as fearless tennis completely disregarding the stature of opponent. And its true.

Becker was a very special teen. So was Nadal. and they are rare.

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Re: Oz open prediction game - Day 3!

Post by Tenez on Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:09 pm

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
Tenez wrote:...How do you know Nadal woudl win now at 18 or 19? This is more assumptions from you? He can't even win now that he is at his peak, in fact he is the one losing to youngsters.!!!!

And how do you know he wouldn't have? So this is as much assumption by you. But there is a fact that in 2005 he did.

Nadal is now at his peak? ha ha.. He has barely won anything in the almost 3 years and you think he is at his peak..

That's my point. There is a fact that many did before him and none have done since.

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Re: Oz open prediction game - Day 3!

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