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ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Veejay on Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:03 pm

Daniel wrote:
Veejay wrote:i am inclined to believe that this trend of peaking beyond your prime is far more unnatural then it is natural

yes there is,just go to a gym and look at the body builders.theres is no way you can achieve such muscle mass naturally
of course they would like you to believe otherwise


My uncle is a bodybuilder and I can assure you he doesn't dope - yet he naturally has larger muscles than most of them there. He also got accused of doping.  This whole thread is a waste of time.

show us a pic of him in competition

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Daniel on Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:59 pm

He isn't in competition.  He is a bodybuilder in the sense that he weight lifts a lot and goes to gym every day to do it.  He isn't a professional weight lifter :P  The point is he basically turned up and within a few weeks was meatier than people who had been there years - and that's when accusations started.

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Daniel on Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:03 pm

NITB wrote:Daniel, 

this is what Nadal looked when he was 18.



Ever seen what Bruce Lee looked like at 18?  I am a very big fan of his.  He didn't dope and yet in his 20s he was the most physically fit person on planet Earth and probably the deadliest fighter to go with it.  His secret was hours in the gym, a great diet, and ridiculous levels of training - including Wing Chun under Ip Man.   You'll also note that this muscle is internal - VERY HARD to achieve. Nadal's is the lazy kind of muscle and much easier to achieve.

Just because someone has muscle does not mean that he is doping.  But even if Nadal is or has doped...  how does that help your absurd argument about Djokovic / Murray based on fitness?  You aren't claiming they are as bulked as Nadal is here.

No rational person can take the argument seriously that muscle = doping.  It simply isn't a credible argument.

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Daniel on Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:08 pm

The simple point is that you have no facts, just a desire to accuse players who are successful and you dislike of being dopers. 



This.  This is absolutely what it's all about.  I can't stick Murray and I HATE Nadal - but I still don't accuse the latter - and I also believe the former is clean.

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Veejay on Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:11 pm

Daniel wrote:He isn't in competition.  He is a bodybuilder in the sense that he weight lifts a lot and goes to gym every day to do it.  He isn't a professional weight lifter :P  The point is he basically turned up and within a few weeks was meatier than people who had been there years - and that's when accusations started.
well thats not really relevant to this conversation so i dont know why you decided to mention it
youre implying that its perfectly plausible to develop a professional body builders physique without the use of steroids 
and that your uncle has managed to achieve that,so until we can see a legitimate photo to prove what youre saying,how can you expect anyone to believe you?
i have no doubt that your uncle like most men in the gym pumps iron,however if what youre saying is true and that he has been accused by other people who use a gym of taking steroids,they are more likely to be correct then incorrect
through my many years of experience i have never ever witnessed anyone ever be able to achieve a body builders physique without the use of steroids..those that claim they do have been proven to be liars
like many dopers in any sport...no one ever wants to admit to it

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Daniel on Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:15 pm

Of course it is relevant. He was accused based on the fact he naturally put on muscle compared to everyone else in the gym doing the weight lifting. He was accused by fellow weight lifters. The same shitty witch hunt, unscientific clap trap that you guys are doing with Murray, Nadal, and Djokovic. 

It is plausible - because Bruce Lee did it to a standard that no-one else has come close to. See above.  So have thousands of lifters for competition purposes (different type of muscle training to Lee).  Or are you saying every single weight lifter at the Olympics is doping? And every single boxer is doping?  Last I looked - they have bigger and better muscles than Nadal.

"More likely to be correct than  incorrect"

How arrogant of you. My uncle is the furthest thing from a drug taker there is and yet you now feel qualified on hearsay to declare him a doper too!  Are you insane?  Doh Is this how you operate "I was told" "I heard"  and then go running off to declare someone has done something bad based on no evidence whatsoever?  I hope it happens to you one day.  I hope you are accused by everyone of something you haven't done.  You appear to need it.

The problem you guys have is that your arguments are completely void of facts. You don't accept stats. You don't accept scientific studies. You don't accept that genetics plays a HUGE role in weight gain, muscle gain, and overall ability and potential of all kinds. Some people will be faster. Some will be heavier. Some will be smaller. Some will be thinner. Some will have natural muscle mass that is easier to hone.  Myself?  I am 5 feet 8, a definite disadvantage for modern tennis (and I can't tell you the number of times I have lost a point solely on that basis. It's a LOT). I didn't get to choose my height - it was given by genetics.  On the other hand, I have faster snap reflexes and do very well in hand eye coordinated games that don't rely on height (darts and table tennis). I also have above average intelligence and always have had. I also didn't choose these things.  They are largely genetic.

"Look at this picture of Nadal"
"Wawrinka didn't win anything until recently... hehehe  we all know why!"
"Murray can't run that fast without doping"
"No human can run for so long - yet Djokovic and Murray did it here"

ARE NOT VALID ARGUMENTS.  


Last edited by Daniel on Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:13 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Veejay on Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:18 pm

Daniel wrote:Of course it is relevant. He was accused based on the fact he naturally put on muscle compared to everyone else in the gym doing the weight lifting. He was accused by fellow weight lifters. The same shitty witch hunt, unscientific clap trap that you guys are doing with Murray, Nadal, and Djokovic. 

It is plausible - because Bruce Lee did it to a standard that no-one else has come close to. See above.  So have thousands of lifters for competition purposes (different type of muscle training to Lee).  Or are you saying every single weight lifter at the Olympics is doping? And every single boxer is doping?  Last I looked - they have bigger and better muscles than Nadal.

"More likely to be correct than  incorrect"

How arrogant of you. My uncle is the furthest thing from a drug taker there is and yet you now feel qualified on hearsay to declare him a doper too!  Are you insane?  Doh
so are you saying that bruce lee has a body builders physique and that he used steriods?
if thats what youre uncle looks like then lol just lol 
no wonder he doesnt compete professionally  Laugh
p.s we are specifically talking about body builders here ..not boxers or other types of sportsman 
you claimed that you cannot say that someone has used steroids just by looking at person..thats where this argument started

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Veejay on Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:22 pm

well show us a picture of what he looks like and prove me wrong..lets see what youre talking about,otherwise how can yo expect anyone to believe you?

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Daniel on Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:23 pm

Do you really think I am gonna upload a picture of my uncle here so that a weirdo like you can call him a doper too and spend time dissecting and ridiculing him - as you do with Murray, Djok, and Nadal?

Get real.

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Veejay on Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:33 pm

Daniel wrote:Do you really think I am gonna upload a picture of my uncle here so that a weirdo like you can call him a doper too and spend time dissecting and ridiculing him - as you do with Murray, Djok, and Nadal?

Get real.
youre the one who brought him into the argument
all i am saying is that it is entirely plausible to know if someone is using steroids just by looking at them
people who use steroids can instantly tell who else is using them,they why i said that if someone accused your uncle of using steroids,they are most likely correct if they are using them too 
theres no need to get so defensive daniel..im not even talking about murray or anyone else here,all i am saying it that you can definitely tell if someone is using steroids just by looking at them
when it comes to other performance enhancing drugs,its far less about physical appearance, in fact for the most part its pretty much impossible to tell just by looking at an athlete,the suspicion is based purely on performance

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Daniel on Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:40 pm

I think that's a bit different to upload a photo of him for you to debate.  I have told you the facts. There is no debate where he is concerned.

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Veejay on Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:58 pm

Daniel wrote:Do you really think I am gonna upload a picture of my uncle here so that a weirdo like you can call him a doper too and spend time dissecting and ridiculing him - as you do with Murray, Djok, and Nadal?

Get real.
but you claimed that your uncle has already been accused of being a doper so what difference will it make if me or anyone else on here will call him one too?

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by legendkillar on Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:42 am

Daniel wrote:Of course it is relevant. He was accused based on the fact he naturally put on muscle compared to everyone else in the gym doing the weight lifting. He was accused by fellow weight lifters. The same shitty witch hunt, unscientific clap trap that you guys are doing with Murray, Nadal, and Djokovic. 

It is plausible - because Bruce Lee did it to a standard that no-one else has come close to. See above.  So have thousands of lifters for competition purposes (different type of muscle training to Lee).  Or are you saying every single weight lifter at the Olympics is doping? And every single boxer is doping?  Last I looked - they have bigger and better muscles than Nadal.

"More likely to be correct than  incorrect"

How arrogant of you. My uncle is the furthest thing from a drug taker there is and yet you now feel qualified on hearsay to declare him a doper too!  Are you insane?  Doh Is this how you operate "I was told" "I heard"  and then go running off to declare someone has done something bad based on no evidence whatsoever?  I hope it happens to you one day.  I hope you are accused by everyone of something you haven't done.  You appear to need it.

The problem you guys have is that your arguments are completely void of facts. You don't accept stats. You don't accept scientific studies. You don't accept that genetics plays a HUGE role in weight gain, muscle gain, and overall ability and potential of all kinds. Some people will be faster. Some will be heavier. Some will be smaller. Some will be thinner. Some will have natural muscle mass that is easier to hone.  Myself?  I am 5 feet 8, a definite disadvantage for modern tennis (and I can't tell you the number of times I have lost a point solely on that basis. It's a LOT). I didn't get to choose my height - it was given by genetics.  On the other hand, I have faster snap reflexes and do very well in hand eye coordinated games that don't rely on height (darts and table tennis). I also have above average intelligence and always have had. I also didn't choose these things.  They are largely genetic.

"Look at this picture of Nadal"
"Wawrinka didn't win anything until recently... hehehe  we all know why!"
"Murray can't run that fast without doping"
"No human can run for so long - yet Djokovic and Murray did it here"

ARE NOT VALID ARGUMENTS.  

Just thought I would point out that 42 medals at the Olympics in Weightlifting have been stripped because of doping. Dread to think how many World Titles or Commonwealth Medals have been stripped.

I for one don't subscribe to this generic assumption everyone in sport dopes regardless of level or achievement. However, most of the views I have seen expressed in relation comes from a level they themselves might play and feel to play at the capacity and level pro's do requires a lot more than diet and exercise.

Interesting to see a wide range of views.

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Tenez on Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:35 am

The proof are in the stats:

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/murray-infosys-time-january-2017

Like Nadal, the key for those physical players is to extend the time between points while also trying to extend rallies length so their extra red cells carrying oxygen (so detrimental to to muscles strength and stamina).

This is exactly how Lance made the difference back then.

Murray's stats don't mention about better FH, better volleys....just that he brings the match further into a physical battle.

One has to be blind not to see the obvious. If Russia and its 10 000s atheltes has a state sponsored doping scheme can't beat the UK in the Olympics who has many less competitive athletes...one has to wonder what the US and UK put in their waters...unless of course they are "a superior race".

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Veejay on Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:30 pm

legendkillar wrote:
Daniel wrote:Of course it is relevant. He was accused based on the fact he naturally put on muscle compared to everyone else in the gym doing the weight lifting. He was accused by fellow weight lifters. The same shitty witch hunt, unscientific clap trap that you guys are doing with Murray, Nadal, and Djokovic. 

It is plausible - because Bruce Lee did it to a standard that no-one else has come close to. See above.  So have thousands of lifters for competition purposes (different type of muscle training to Lee).  Or are you saying every single weight lifter at the Olympics is doping? And every single boxer is doping?  Last I looked - they have bigger and better muscles than Nadal.

"More likely to be correct than  incorrect"

How arrogant of you. My uncle is the furthest thing from a drug taker there is and yet you now feel qualified on hearsay to declare him a doper too!  Are you insane?  Doh Is this how you operate "I was told" "I heard"  and then go running off to declare someone has done something bad based on no evidence whatsoever?  I hope it happens to you one day.  I hope you are accused by everyone of something you haven't done.  You appear to need it.

The problem you guys have is that your arguments are completely void of facts. You don't accept stats. You don't accept scientific studies. You don't accept that genetics plays a HUGE role in weight gain, muscle gain, and overall ability and potential of all kinds. Some people will be faster. Some will be heavier. Some will be smaller. Some will be thinner. Some will have natural muscle mass that is easier to hone.  Myself?  I am 5 feet 8, a definite disadvantage for modern tennis (and I can't tell you the number of times I have lost a point solely on that basis. It's a LOT). I didn't get to choose my height - it was given by genetics.  On the other hand, I have faster snap reflexes and do very well in hand eye coordinated games that don't rely on height (darts and table tennis). I also have above average intelligence and always have had. I also didn't choose these things.  They are largely genetic.

"Look at this picture of Nadal"
"Wawrinka didn't win anything until recently... hehehe  we all know why!"
"Murray can't run that fast without doping"
"No human can run for so long - yet Djokovic and Murray did it here"

ARE NOT VALID ARGUMENTS.  

Just thought I would point out that 42 medals at the Olympics in Weightlifting have been stripped because of doping. Dread to think how many World Titles or Commonwealth Medals have been stripped.

I for one don't subscribe to this generic assumption everyone in sport dopes regardless of level or achievement. However, most of the views I have seen expressed in relation comes from a level they themselves might play and feel to play at the capacity and level pro's do requires a lot more than diet and exercise.

Interesting to see a wide range of views.
the thing is that no one is disputing that its possible for someone like daniels uncle to go to the gym,and build a nice beach body physique with the right diet, training regime and whatever sports supplements but daniei is claiming that you cannot tell if someone if using steroids just by looking at them
he is also claiming that its possible to build a professional body builders physique without the use of steroids 
i would say most people who have used steroids can instantly tell you who is on them just by looking at them,they know the process of how your body changes when youre on or off them,its so obvious
this is why i think that its fair to say that if people who have used steroids accuse daniel's uncle of using them,the are most probably right

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by legendkillar on Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:51 pm

Veejay wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Daniel wrote:Of course it is relevant. He was accused based on the fact he naturally put on muscle compared to everyone else in the gym doing the weight lifting. He was accused by fellow weight lifters. The same shitty witch hunt, unscientific clap trap that you guys are doing with Murray, Nadal, and Djokovic. 

It is plausible - because Bruce Lee did it to a standard that no-one else has come close to. See above.  So have thousands of lifters for competition purposes (different type of muscle training to Lee).  Or are you saying every single weight lifter at the Olympics is doping? And every single boxer is doping?  Last I looked - they have bigger and better muscles than Nadal.

"More likely to be correct than  incorrect"

How arrogant of you. My uncle is the furthest thing from a drug taker there is and yet you now feel qualified on hearsay to declare him a doper too!  Are you insane?  Doh Is this how you operate "I was told" "I heard"  and then go running off to declare someone has done something bad based on no evidence whatsoever?  I hope it happens to you one day.  I hope you are accused by everyone of something you haven't done.  You appear to need it.

The problem you guys have is that your arguments are completely void of facts. You don't accept stats. You don't accept scientific studies. You don't accept that genetics plays a HUGE role in weight gain, muscle gain, and overall ability and potential of all kinds. Some people will be faster. Some will be heavier. Some will be smaller. Some will be thinner. Some will have natural muscle mass that is easier to hone.  Myself?  I am 5 feet 8, a definite disadvantage for modern tennis (and I can't tell you the number of times I have lost a point solely on that basis. It's a LOT). I didn't get to choose my height - it was given by genetics.  On the other hand, I have faster snap reflexes and do very well in hand eye coordinated games that don't rely on height (darts and table tennis). I also have above average intelligence and always have had. I also didn't choose these things.  They are largely genetic.

"Look at this picture of Nadal"
"Wawrinka didn't win anything until recently... hehehe  we all know why!"
"Murray can't run that fast without doping"
"No human can run for so long - yet Djokovic and Murray did it here"

ARE NOT VALID ARGUMENTS.  

Just thought I would point out that 42 medals at the Olympics in Weightlifting have been stripped because of doping. Dread to think how many World Titles or Commonwealth Medals have been stripped.

I for one don't subscribe to this generic assumption everyone in sport dopes regardless of level or achievement. However, most of the views I have seen expressed in relation comes from a level they themselves might play and feel to play at the capacity and level pro's do requires a lot more than diet and exercise.

Interesting to see a wide range of views.
the thing is that no one is disputing that its possible for someone like daniels uncle to go to the gym,and build a nice beach body physique with the right diet, training regime and whatever sports supplements but daniei is claiming that you cannot tell if someone if using steroids just by looking at them
he is also claiming that its possible to build a professional body builders physique without the use of steroids 
i would say most people who have used steroids can instantly tell you who is on them just by looking at them,they know the process of how your body changes when youre on or off them,its so obvious
this is why i think that its fair to say that if people who have used steroids accuse daniel's uncle of using them,the are most probably right


I think Daniel's gripe is that the assumption of doping is fired at athletes because of their build. Almost like it is the default position, which in fairness is a good point.

One of my biggest gripes ever is the Lance Armstrong case. Purely because when someone accuses an athlete of doping, it's the one case they keep relating back to.

An open mind is not a bad thing. I don't subscribe entirely that top levels of performance are because of doping, but in some cases it would explain a few things Winking

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Veejay on Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:11 pm

well let me ask you this,how many times has accusations of doping eventually turned out to be true?
i cant think of a single time that the athlete was proven 100% innocent and by that i mean not hiding behind some ignorant excuse like they didnt know what they did was wrong...
of course this doesnt prove wide spread doping in sport or suspicions around certain athletes,all im saying is every time these accusation have eventually turned out to be true 
the truth always has the last laugh
as they say theres no smoke without fire 

as for daniel there is a distinct difference between body build/type and someone using steroids 
lets take murray for instance... not a naturally muscular guy,but i am 100% certain that he was on nandrolone/ deca durabolin when he was being coached by brad glbert
but that was back then and just looking at the tour right now,its obvious that steroids are not the preferred choice of drug anymore
it seems that there are  better drugs that can give you the strength and power plus the endurance you require to compete day in and day out 
or maybe some of them are really playing clean and by that  mean no illegal drugs,just all the legal one you can use

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Slippy on Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:57 am

What makes you 100% sure Veejay? I'm struggling a bit to recall what Andy did under Gilbert.

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Veejay on Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:47 am

Slippy wrote:What makes you 100% sure Veejay? I'm struggling a bit to recall what Andy did under Gilbert.
its really about muscle growth in relation to murrays natural lean muscle tissue 
its a very fast acting steroid with visible results in as little as 4 weeks so that was the first clear sign..
the other way you can tell if someone has used deca is the bloated look it gives your muscles 
water retention is avoidable but for the most part it still gives you that look,like your muscles are filled with hot air 
murray also became a top 10 player,i think that he was ranking somewhere in the 70's prior to that,maybe even lower 
i dont however believe that he uses steroids anymore,in my opinion there havent been any clear signs of steroid use for quite some time
but that goes for a lot of the players i believe were on steroids at some point in their career
the only really obvious case for me in 2016 was dominika cibulkova

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by legendkillar on Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:46 am

Veejay wrote:well let me ask you this,how many times has accusations of doping eventually turned out to be true?
i cant think of a single time that the athlete was proven 100% innocent and by that i mean not hiding behind some ignorant excuse like they didnt know what they did was wrong...
of course this doesnt prove wide spread doping in sport or suspicions around certain athletes,all im saying is every time these accusation have eventually turned out to be true 
the truth always has the last laugh
as they say theres no smoke without fire 

as for daniel there is a distinct difference between body build/type and someone using steroids 
lets take murray for instance... not a naturally muscular guy,but i am 100% certain that he was on nandrolone/ deca durabolin when he was being coached by brad glbert
but that was back then and just looking at the tour right now,its obvious that steroids are not the preferred choice of drug anymore
it seems that there are  better drugs that can give you the strength and power plus the endurance you require to compete day in and day out 
or maybe some of them are really playing clean and by that  mean no illegal drugs,just all the legal one you can use

I can't imagine it's a high conversion rate. It's only the case if the suspicions are proven. If we assume ALL athletes dope, then naturally you will be correct, but that is too sceptical for my liking as I believe most athletes are probably clean.

Murray's muscles didn't develop under Gilbert. If anything his slow gain of muscle came when he put his team together in 2008. Murray's serve certainly died post Gilbert Laugh Laugh

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Veejay on Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:06 pm

well i am really just referring to athletes who have basically been subjected to witch-hunts,every time it turns out to be true...and i think eventually it will be proven to be true about rafael nadal too 

what would your definition of clean be?
no illegal drugs or no drugs at all or all legal drugs available to you?
its my opinion that no pro athlete in physical sports or discipline competes on pure adrenaline alone,they are all using something whether its legal or banned.
it becomes a lot harder when speculation can only be based on performance only cause doping doesnt guarantee winning and players get hot and cold all the time
however if you keep seeing a pattern,like with rafeal nadal that will go through a 3 month spell of winning 1,2 maybe3 majors in a row to then suddenly being unable to take a set off a top 10 player for the next 6 months,disappearing from tour due to injury etc then thats most likely the case

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by legendkillar on Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:45 pm

My definition of clean would be an athlete who doesn't use banned substances that dramatically increase performance. I don't have an issue with legal substances or remedies for recouperation.

There are so many demands on the modern athlete that for them to just function is a miracle which is why I think it does lead to so much speculation.

The thing with Nadal is that it has always been spoken that his style and brand of tennis was so physically taxing that his body would reach a point that he can sustain it. You say about the inconsistency with performances, however the flip side to that argument is that would it not be more unrealistic for him to sweep the board year on year? Personally I think it's of no coincidence that he is only managed to win 3 Slams in 1 season once and only managed a double twice. Nadal is to me a lot like Sampras. Loves winning. Has an insatiable appetite for winning everything. The feeling of winning is like a drug.

When you look at Lance Armstrong for example. He wanted to win everything. No compromise whatsoever. His story was truly what cycling needed and Lance did actually take cycling further into the mainstream. Opened up doors they could only dream of. Cycling needed Lance. When I see that similarly applied to Nadal, I struggle to agree that he is to tennis what Lance was to cycling.

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Veejay on Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:21 pm

its a fair point re nadal but when im speaking about the pattern see from him im really pointing out how he cycles 
ie. when he cycles up,he can win 1,2 maybe 3 majors n a row,3 months later when he cycles down he cant take a set off a top 10 player and all that improvement is virtually nowhere to be seen
depending on the drugs but mostly steriods,dopers cannot be consistent because they have to cycle down,the longer you cycle down the more effective the drug will be the next time you cycle up
this is why we saw such an incredible improvement in nadal in 2010
he cycled up to win AO 09,which meant that he had to cycle down during the summer slam,lost RG for the first time,didnt play wimbledon etc by the end of the year he had lost a significant amount of weight/muscle mass which is consistent with what happens when you cycle down from drugs that contain growth hormones..
that meant he was off the drugs for over a year, comes back to tour and wins 3 majors in a row,by the end of the year that improvement is nowhere to be seen
when youre depnding on the drugs to achieve a certain level of  play,youre obviously not going to be the same play when you cycle down this why is is always almost half the player he is when he cycles down 
i believe that that is the kind of player he actually is without the drugs

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by legendkillar on Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:44 pm

Nadal is ambitious like most athletes. Now it's my belief if he was a mastermind behind a new and improved doping program, you have to ask the question of the sport itself if it's in the same limbo as cycling. In other words could tennis take the brunt of a player like Nadal's profile being fingered for doping? Personally I believe it can.

I can see where you are coming from, I do. But does his career trajectory follow one of a highly cautious doper or an athlete who's body can't keep up with the demands of their game?

The thing with taking growth hormones, it takes an absolute age to get out of the system. If you are on the cusp of breaking records like the 17 Slam total, you wouldn't want to be out of the sport for long periods would you?

I think his trajectory is more consistent with his body just being that beat. Remember he turned pro when he was 14 I think. To some he's had a long career already so it's most likely his body would hit the wall a lot earlier than say Murray or Djokovic.

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Veejay on Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:12 pm

legendkillar wrote:Nadal is ambitious like most athletes. Now it's my belief if he was a mastermind behind a new and improved doping program, you have to ask the question of the sport itself if it's in the same limbo as cycling. In other words could tennis take the brunt of a player like Nadal's profile being fingered for doping? Personally I believe it can.

I can see where you are coming from, I do. But does his career trajectory follow one of a highly cautious doper or an athlete who's body can't keep up with the demands of their game?

The thing with taking growth hormones, it takes an absolute age to get out of the system. If you are on the cusp of breaking records like the 17 Slam total, you wouldn't want to be out of the sport for long periods would you?

I think his trajectory is more consistent with his body just being that beat. Remember he turned pro when he was 14 I think. To some he's had a long career already so it's most likely his body would hit the wall a lot earlier than say Murray or Djokovic.
i dont really believe that rafael nadal is the natural  phenomenal athlete he is made out to be or that he is what you would consider naturally talented to be a tennis player
obviously there is enough to work with,some clever coaching by his uncle that made him learn to play left handed when he is actually right handed,but to me a lot of it is drugs and racket technology.
the thing about taking PED's especially steriods,is that youre able to push your body beyond your natural ability 
if you dont even have the innate talent to begin with,youre automatically forcing something that doesnt come naturally to you
its like trying or forcing to do the splits while having hamstring injuries,or really really short hamstrings...how do you think thats going eventually end?

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by legendkillar on Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:40 pm

Veejay wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Nadal is ambitious like most athletes. Now it's my belief if he was a mastermind behind a new and improved doping program, you have to ask the question of the sport itself if it's in the same limbo as cycling. In other words could tennis take the brunt of a player like Nadal's profile being fingered for doping? Personally I believe it can.

I can see where you are coming from, I do. But does his career trajectory follow one of a highly cautious doper or an athlete who's body can't keep up with the demands of their game?

The thing with taking growth hormones, it takes an absolute age to get out of the system. If you are on the cusp of breaking records like the 17 Slam total, you wouldn't want to be out of the sport for long periods would you?

I think his trajectory is more consistent with his body just being that beat. Remember he turned pro when he was 14 I think. To some he's had a long career already so it's most likely his body would hit the wall a lot earlier than say Murray or Djokovic.
i dont really believe that rafael nadal is the natural  phenomenal athlete he is made out to be or that he is what you would consider naturally talented to be a tennis player
obviously there is enough to work with,some clever coaching by his uncle that made him learn to play left handed when he is actually right handed,but to me a lot of it is drugs and racket technology.
the thing about taking PED's especially steriods,is that youre able to push your body beyond your natural ability 
if you dont even have the innate talent to begin with,youre automatically forcing something that doesnt come naturally to you
its like trying or forcing to do the splits while having hamstring injuries,or really really short hamstrings...how do you think thats going eventually end?

Depends on what primarily is the strength in someone's game is made up of. Sport is absolutely littered with athletes over the years who lose their edge suddenly or burn out way before the age of decline should kick in. Boxing is full of fighters who absolutely boxed at a high level so quickly and were burnt out by their mid 20's. Footballers too. Some make an instant impact and by their mid 20's have nothing to give at that level.

The best case I can liken Nadal to is Tiger Woods. Everyone absolutely marvelled at his power. In a way to Nadal. More emphasis on the power and athleticism they bought to their respective sports which vastly overshadowed other talent in their games. People I played golf with and even coaches said right at Woods's pomp that his swing relies so much on his back that eventually he'll knacker his back out. By 31 his back was knackered. Swing was all over the place and was hit by injury after injury. Like Nadal the one element eg power and athleticism that gave them such a big edge had dwindled and the rest of the field caught up.

Now athleticism and power seem rather trivial in how they are obtained. I'd be the first to say it wasn't new, however no-one saw it in such an explosive manner that Woods and Nadal brought to the sport. Now many would argue and debate many a day as to what enabled such explosive power, but for me it is of no surprise that in the cases of Nadal and Woods that such dominance dropped off relatively early in their careers. The thing to remember is when we are young, we believe ourselves to be invincible which is why I believe that maybe that is why Nadal and Woods failed to adapt their games to maintain their levels.

It's the body that goes first before the mind, and if your mind is not expanded and sharp enough you fall behind.

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Veejay on Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:04 pm

sound comment and argument LK but i would relate that to the decline of an athlete,not necessarily the inconsistent results from a player like nadal during his prime/peak of his career,when he is winning 3 majors in a row and then suddenly for the next few months cant take  set off a top 10 player


you actually raise a very interesting point
"athleticism and power seem rather trivial in how they are obtained"

i believe that it could be an innate talent that youre born with or that you could acquire it through the use if PED's
in my opinion it would be the latter with regards to rafael nadal 

so i got a question for you
do you think that nadals edge over the pack- the element of power and athleticism dwindled,or is it a question of the other players starting to dope that caught up with him?
personally when i look at djokovic's 11 season,its hard not to believe that latter,i dont believe that nadal was burnt out when the rest of the pack started catching up or over taking him

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by ... on Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:41 pm

Veejay wrote:sound comment and argument LK but i would relate that to the decline of an athlete,not necessarily the inconsistent results from a player like nadal during his prime/peak of his career,when he is winning 3 majors in a row and then suddenly for the next few months cant take  set off a top 10 player


you actually raise a very interesting point
"athleticism and power seem rather trivial in how they are obtained"

i believe that it could be an innate talent that youre born with or that you could acquire it through the use if PED's
in my opinion it would be the latter with regards to rafael nadal 

so i got a question for you
do you think that nadals edge over the pack- the element of power and athleticism dwindled,or is it a question of the other players starting to dope that caught up with him?
personally when i look at djokovic's 11 season,its hard not to believe that latter,i dont believe that nadal was burnt out when the rest of the pack started catching up or over taking him

Unfortunately, that was the case and legacy of Nadal's contribution to tennis which in my opinion was the death of it.

Tennis after Nadal was never going to be the same, but in a negative way.

However fantastic Federer was, all that was anulled with allowing Nadal to dope in order to make the tour "more interesting".

Had his time between the points been nipped in the bud - many players would have healthier (Delpo) and longer careers, playing better tennis.

We wouldn't have a surge of super tall players that are making tennis less attractive to watch, simply because their size does not allow them to be as agile and versatile as say 6 foot one and below players.

Who is the most successful "young" player: Raonic.
Who is the most succesful young player: Zverev.

Why?

Because only tall servers and hard hitters are able to break through current field of percentage domination.

I am annoyed Nole had to start doping but that was his only chance to beat Nadal. And I am glad he did, I would like to believe he would not have done otherwise.

Federer was out of everyone's league so he didn't need to.

So...on we go, we still have lots of talent in the pipeline...

I wish I could wave a magic wand and make all players clean this AO.

We'd have a Federer-Pouille final.




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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Veejay on Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:49 pm

i have to agree with you NITB,i also believe thats what happened.i find it hard to commend nadal for the way he changed the game,in my opinion it wasnt a positive change but rather a negative one

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Tenez on Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:43 am

Rublev a set up in that R2 qualif....and a break up.

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Tenez on Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:24 am

Awful line cal on MP robbing him of the match. Got broken but managed to keep his nerves in the TB.

Well done. Gutsy performance!

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by ... on Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:03 am

Tenez wrote:Awful line cal on MP robbing him of the match. Got broken but managed to keep his nerves in the TB.

Well done. Gutsy performance!
When I saw his name in the qual. draw a few days ago, I remembered talking to him in Roehampton in the summer of 2015, telling him he was going to be the new number one and he promising me a ticket if he played in the final of Wimbledon...

Everything looked so possible on that beautiful sunny day...

He lost his match to Dodig then and failed to qualify. Same in 2016.

I watched him play challengers a few times. No more baby face, became neurotic with temper, frustration and impatience, hurting himself with the racquet...

There was another moment when he played A.Zverev in Monte Carlo as a WC.

He lost but was a better player.

Now, he is still playing qualifications and Zverev is a seeded player.

What is it that made the difference?

Zverev's "Team", an older, experienced brother to guide him through the tour, a better national tennis federation?

Or maybe Rubi's risky game just needs more time to mature, to earn a lucky break.

I am glad he won. I was worried the Japanese might grind him oit.  Hopefully will make it to the main draw.

Is he still playing from the baseline only?

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by legendkillar on Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:05 am

Veejay wrote:sound comment and argument LK but i would relate that to the decline of an athlete,not necessarily the inconsistent results from a player like nadal during his prime/peak of his career,when he is winning 3 majors in a row and then suddenly for the next few months cant take  set off a top 10 player


you actually raise a very interesting point
"athleticism and power seem rather trivial in how they are obtained"

i believe that it could be an innate talent that youre born with or that you could acquire it through the use if PED's
in my opinion it would be the latter with regards to rafael nadal 

so i got a question for you
do you think that nadals edge over the pack- the element of power and athleticism dwindled,or is it a question of the other players starting to dope that caught up with him?
personally when i look at djokovic's 11 season,its hard not to believe that latter,i dont believe that nadal was burnt out when the rest of the pack started catching up or over taking him

Thing is Vee, when anyone in any sport pushes the sport to a level to where only 1 or even 2 can play at, there is only one direction after that and it's down. That the Woods example. That man was driving in excess of 330 yards and clearing bunkers and narrowings on fairways. Eventually technology allowed others to start hitting those distances. Similarly with Nadal. Could play on and on in matches and eventually the rest will catch up and surpass. Murray, Djokovic. Look at the Murray/Djokovic dynamic and compare it with the Spieth/McIlroy dynamic. In both scenario's you have two who have enough to play at the top level and the other two can play at the top level and have an extra edge that bestows them at the top.

The thing with Nadal everyone gets carried away with the sheer freakish element of his athleticism and I get that I do, however there are some other factors which also point in the direction that maybe his career was always going to end up like it has.

I echo Tenez's argument he took for years and that was once the power went out of Nadal's game, he would struggle and thus far on the face of it, it's not looking as crazy as it did to most all those years ago. There are those who felt Nadal would be too talented to just be blunted by loss of power. For me I was more surely Nadal would look at developing his game over time to cope when that day came. Similarly to Tiger. Find new ways of winning. The very best can do that. Federer for example realising his baseline game wasn't the best out that developed a more all court game and that development was so crucial to him being able to win later in his career but also sustain the levels he has and enjoy longevity. Nicklaus in golf once he realised that players could hit harder worked on his short game which breathed more longevity into his game.

If we look over this past decade. It's been rare instances in which consistent aggressive shotmaking performances have won out in the Slams. I think being honest Federer/Wawrinka have been the ones putting those performances in those victories. Tennis might very well take a different direction in which those performances will become the norm.

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Veejay on Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:48 pm

thats one of the nicest ways i have ever seen anyone basically say how one dimensional rafael nadal is  Laugh
but yes i agree,he started writing cheques his body wont cash later in his teens already

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Tenez on Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:09 am

Has Nadal power deserted him or is his power simply not enough to win big nowadays. I think (am sure in fact) the latter. Nadal always had close matches even against very low ranked players....now he has to play at a faster tempo against better players and his game has lost its novelty effect which drew so many UEs from his opponents.

A bit like Borg and his relentless steady game, one McEnroe beat him, everybody else did.

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by luvsports! on Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:44 am

https://twitter.com/7tennis/status/820217131715301378
Beautiful moment Big Grin

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by ... on Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:50 am

luvsports! wrote:https://twitter.com/7tennis/status/820217131715301378
Beautiful moment Big Grin

I actually watched some of the first set...didn't realise this was his first title.

Beautiful moment, indeed, even my eyes went misty....oh those emotions!!!!!

Hope Evans wins one some day, too.

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Tenez on Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:51 am

Nice. Always liked him even though he moves like a snail.

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by legendkillar on Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:12 am

Veejay wrote:thats one of the nicest ways i have ever seen anyone basically say how one dimensional rafael nadal is  Laugh
but yes i agree,he started writing cheques his body wont cash later in his teens already


Well I don't see the need to be totally heavy handed in my assessment of where he's game is. Some don't look beyond the curve, because they possibly believe that levels required beyond that are un-achievable and thus causes complacency. Sometimes one injury can be like a snowball and be the beginning of a snowball effect.

Nadal has no other choice than really to be more aggressive and a change in mindset for someone perceived as 'OCD' is a difficult thing to get one's head around. I think he just doesn't believe anymore that he can win the big matches and the big points.

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Daniel on Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:39 am

So, what's the consensus, fellas? How are we gonna prove that these people dope?  How about we do something similar to what we did to those pesky witches?  We'll tie Nadal, and Murray, and Djokovic to a giant rack and stretch them until an ordinary person's bones would rip clear out of the sockets.  

If Nadal, Murray, or Djokovic manage to stop the rack somehow, we'll know they are dopers for sure!  And, if not, whoops—just ruined their careers for nothing.

How about it?  I'm ready for a good witch hunt!  Get those torches lit, boys! We're going getting them suckers.

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Veejay on Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:11 am

Daniel wrote:So, what's the consensus, fellas? How are we gonna prove that these people dope?  How about we do something similar to what we did to those pesky witches?  We'll tie Nadal, and Murray, and Djokovic to a giant rack and stretch them until an ordinary person's bones would rip clear out of the sockets.  

If Nadal, Murray, or Djokovic manage to stop the rack somehow, we'll know they are dopers for sure!  And, if not, whoops—just ruined their careers for nothing.

How about it?  I'm ready for a good witch hunt!  Get those torches lit, boys! We're going getting them suckers.
no need for a witch hunt daniel..we are just discussing our opinions...while some of us feel very strongly about certain athletes our opinions are still opinions until they have been proven as fact
eventually everyones karma catches up with them,just look at lance armstrong,for years it looked like he got away with it bribing and suing his way out of every scandal..who ever expected that it would implode so spectacularly?

so hows your uncle doing daniel? have you found a picture of him that you can share with us  Big Grin

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by ... on Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:53 am

Just a reminder we do have a thread for smaller tournaments! diva

This week: Sofia, Monpellier, Equador.

Haven't seen anything, but this may we worth a look:



Brown beats Cilic in straights.

Seems like he comes to life in Montpellier, I remember he destroyed Gasquet there last year, 6:0, 30:0, played craziest tennis I have ever seen...them the clock struck midnight and his wand ran out of magic dusty Magic and he lost!

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by ... on Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:17 am

Gulbis is alive! surfer

Playing Stakhovsky in Rotterdam qualies.

Also Rublev and Taitsipas (the young Greek SBH-er, though he'll have a tough job against Istomin)

In Monpellier, watchable semis:

Tsonga-Zverev (A)
Gasquet-Paire

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Tenez on Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:49 pm

I was wondering about Gulbis. I am surprised he is still around.

It's all about being professional, dedicated, resilient, etc....Which is in fact harder to be so when you have talent than when you have not hence have no choice.

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by ... on Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:19 pm

True.

Another thing that went against him was his wealthy father, so probably must really love the game to be getting himself out of bed and enduring gruelling fitness trainings needed for today's competition.

Best thing about him was he could affort to speak the truth, never slaved to sponsor and PR pressure, and that is proceless!

I only saw him live once in Boodles and was not impressed at all, he wasn't hitting the ball cleanly, shanked many.
His tennis looks much better on TV, but to be fair to him, he just came out of some long hiatus so must have been quite rusty.

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by luvsports! on Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:18 pm

So wins for Dimi and Zverev.

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Tenez on Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:38 pm

Typical. ThE youngster I am not fan of his game is likely to be the next big star in tennis. So frustrating. I really don't like Zverev game. Just a better Murray.

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by ... on Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:55 am

Tenez wrote:Typical. ThE youngster I am not fan of his game is likely to be the next big star in tennis. So frustrating. I really don't like Zverev game. Just a better Murray.
Yes, desiccated the French field.

I am not yet convinced he has picked the right long term formula.

He will be difficult to beat but beatable at best.

He may have broken through first among the youngsters because of fitness, but look at Coric - he seems to be already finished.

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by ... on Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:58 am

luvsports! wrote:So wins for Dimi and Zverev.
I saw shorth highlights of Dimi-Goffin, very nice, accurate ball striking from Goff and Dimi continues to pummel his FH.

Dimi got so emotional after the match...home crowd effect.

Looks like he's gound the right coach in Valverdou.

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Re: ATP 2017 500,250: Rio, Marseille, Delray

Post by Tenez on Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:24 pm

I had the feeling that Goffin woudl get teh better of Dimi this time around. Must have played well or ..Dimi ran out of steam.

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