Our Tennis Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.
Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Latest topics
» I Just Can't Help Believing!
US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 EmptySat Mar 23, 2024 9:00 pm by noleisthebest

» The Bullshit of Rafael Nadal
US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 EmptyMon Feb 12, 2024 12:15 am by Daniel2

» Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism
US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 EmptyThu Feb 01, 2024 4:32 am by Daniel2

» Missing Madeline 10 years on..
US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 EmptyThu Feb 01, 2024 4:31 am by Daniel2

» '15 Dubious Weak Era Records'
US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 EmptyThu Feb 01, 2024 4:06 am by Daniel2

» AO 2024 - Sinner baby!!
US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 EmptyThu Feb 01, 2024 4:05 am by Daniel2

» Paris Masters
US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 EmptyMon Nov 06, 2023 9:47 pm by noleisthebest

» Alvarez could bring me back to tennis
US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 EmptyWed Sep 20, 2023 10:25 am by raiders_of_the_lost_ark

» IDEMOOOOOOO! ! ! !
US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 EmptyMon Sep 11, 2023 9:47 am by noleisthebest

March 2024
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
    123
45678910
11121314151617
18192021222324
25262728293031

Calendar Calendar

Affiliates
free forum


US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

+7
summerblues
laverfan
Tenez
mikeyM1000
noleisthebest
Larry Ellison
paulcz
11 posters

Page 7 of 8 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Veejay Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:47 pm

Tenez wrote:Yes, Vee. Considering there was only 2 points deciding the crucial first set.

However, Now that Murray has a slam, he shoudl have the confidence to win more and we will see how successful he gets at adding more to this maiden slam.

I didnt expect Murray to win,but then again I didnt expect Djokovic to make so many errors.I dont know how he lost that 1st set,he had it on his racket but his serve kept letting him down
Murray has answered a lot of questions this season,but it still remains to see if he can win a major beating 2 of the top 3 back to back,but who knows whats in store next season,they may not even be the players to beat

Veejay

Posts : 3377
Join date : 2012-06-19

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Tenez Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:23 pm

Veejay wrote:Murray has answered a lot of questions this season,but it still remains to see if he can win a major beating 2 of the top 3 back to back,but who knows whats in store next season,they may not even be the players to beat

Well I think if you can beat one, you can beat 2. The question essentially is can he beat a form Federer or Djokovic.

It has always been clear he could beat an off-day Federer or Djoko. The H2Hs show that. And the Olympics confimed it again recently. But 3 weeks before that a masterful Federer won pretty convingly, a very different result from the Olympic final. Same applies for Djoko, When conds were still and Djoko had still a bit left in the tank, he really won 2 sets convingly on MOnday.

That's why this final raised more questions than it answered.

Tenez

Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by sphairistike Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:24 pm

Actually, I feel it answered questions alright in sets 3 and 4. On form Nole would beat Murray pretty convincingly. US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 4006036031

sphairistike

Posts : 589
Join date : 2012-08-20

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by paulcz Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:05 pm

When thinking about players appeared in the final, I was given a question how they could develop from then on.

I see Nole as the most complex player, who can play the great defense, but when it needs to change the game pattern, he can go at the net and play good volleys. If he plays on his day he is a great player who is able to play many winners. But on the nasty day he would need a little bit improve the first serve, volleying and overdo slices. Then he switches from a great player to the brilliant player. I am sure that he is getting more stronger from now on.

Andy, when I am thinking about his potential I actually do not see any change for his game plan. Yes, he does not have a real weakness and now he is enough confident to hold nerves. But his monotonous game moves to a category the super grinding tennis. Active counter-punching based on the fast reaction and a great intuition is enough when your serve is working and you have the game under control. But playing with the players who play a grinding tennis like Ferrer or Fognini, then he will always struggle. Andy is a tough player with a great move and determination, but I clearly can not see a sign to start playing more active game pattern and just outplay moonballing players who do not have great groundstrokes, but good legs and lungs.

Those who said that Nole with Andy was the boring match, be ready for the super boring matches. Is his fitness so good to have such a belief in himself to play like that?

I wish to see a match between Andy and injured one in AOUS OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 1071211947 if he still injured then with Ferru US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 1071211947

paulcz

Posts : 1774
Join date : 2012-07-14

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Tenez Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:14 am

The problem I have with Djoko is that though he could win by being more aggressive many of his matches he chooses the "safe" road which is to burst his opponents lungs. In a way it was interesting to see Murray giving him a bit of his own medecine...essentially cause it was windy.

Tenez

Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by noleisthebest Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:16 am

Tenez wrote:The problem I have with Djoko is that though he could win by being more aggressive many of his matches he chooses the "safe" road which is to burst his opponents lungs. In a way it was interesting to see Murray giving him a bit of his own medecine...essentially cause it was windy.

Don't worry, even "Djoko" has a problem with himself because of it US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 1071211947
I am undecided whether it's a bad habit or just an easier option for him. He is certainly aware of it and working on it.

I have often wondered why he changed his original play towards the conservative bend, is it those horrible losses to Nadal in 2009, slower conditions...
whatever it was he knows the way out and also that he is able to do it as it's in his make-up.
His caution is not natural like Murray's, I think it's acquired.

noleisthebest

Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Tenez Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:41 am

noleisthebest wrote:I am undecided whether it's a bad habit or just an easier option for him. He is certainly aware of it and working on it.

It's neither I think. It's simply the safer option to reach the next round.

Tenez

Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by noleisthebest Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:42 am

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:I am undecided whether it's a bad habit or just an easier option for him. He is certainly aware of it and working on it.

It's neither I think. It's simply the safer option to reach the next round.
safe=easy (mentally, which is obviously the most costly factor to him)

noleisthebest

Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by laverfan Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:47 am

Tenez wrote:Same applies for Djoko, When conds were still and Djoko had still a bit left in the tank, he really won 2 sets convingly on MOnday.

That's why this final raised more questions than it answered.

Why this caveat of bit left in the tank? Is this an exit strategy for debates? Should all such loses be due to nothing left in the tank? Winking

At the Olympics, both Del Potro (Bronze medal match) and Murray beat Djokovic in a Bo3 on Grass.

Lest you forget, if Federer was tired after the SF with Del Potro, so was Del Potro, but he [Del Potro] managed to beat Djokovic. Winking

You can always say tank was empty, tiredness, too much tennis, etc., etc.

He turned it around in Toronto and actually smiled during the Rogers Cup trophy ceremony, which was wonderful to see. I was a bit sad that he decided to approach a fan who was heckling him and had a few words. Just showed that he was tense.

laverfan

Posts : 1073
Join date : 2012-08-14

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by summerblues Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:49 am

sphairistike wrote:So yes he might have looked aggressive in the 5th set but it is the same way as Nadal might have looked aggressive in the 5th set of AO 2009 after tiring Fed for the first 4 sets...

I suspect we will just end up agreeing to disagree in the end. As I did not see the first four sets, I cannot comment on those. However, I definitely disagree on this description of the fifth. Nadal pretty much never looks aggressive. He may look fresher, and he may dominate his opponent, but he virtually never plays aggressive in the same way the other guys (e.g., Nole or Andy) do. Even when he is dominating the opponent, he will try to gain the upper hand in a baseline exchange and will go for a kill once the opponent is entirely out of position. It is - relatively speaking - extremely rare to see him try to break the point open with aggressive shots. Nole and Andy, on the other hand, will do that (and Andy was doing it in the 5th set) even though their standard posture is also quite defensive.

summerblues

Posts : 5068
Join date : 2012-05-19

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Tenez Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:48 pm

summerblues wrote:
sphairistike wrote:So yes he might have looked aggressive in the 5th set but it is the same way as Nadal might have looked aggressive in the 5th set of AO 2009 after tiring Fed for the first 4 sets...

I suspect we will just end up agreeing to disagree in the end. As I did not see the first four sets, I cannot comment on those. However, I definitely disagree on this description of the fifth. Nadal pretty much never looks aggressive. He may look fresher, and he may dominate his opponent, but he virtually never plays aggressive in the same way the other guys (e.g., Nole or Andy) do. Even when he is dominating the opponent, he will try to gain the upper hand in a baseline exchange and will go for a kill once the opponent is entirely out of position. It is - relatively speaking - extremely rare to see him try to break the point open with aggressive shots. Nole and Andy, on the other hand, will do that (and Andy was doing it in the 5th set) even though their standard posture is also quite defensive.

I think Sphair is right there. Nadal is actually quite agressive when his opponent cannot run anylonger. It is in his interest to please his fans and show that he is not only a defensive player. He sense the moment when the opponent on the ropes won;t try anymore and there he is good at showing his display of aggressive tennis.

I however agree that Nadal is only the aggressor when opponent is tired or simply has no weapon to hurt him (v the Rochus for instance). Against Murray, Nadal is the defender of course though he has also attacked Murray's FH in the past.

In a 5 hour match of 8.5 shot rallies on average, fitness is the main factor. As much as people and players don;t want to find excuses, it 's simply an obversation we ought to make when analysing a match. The 5th set showed a clearly struggling Djokovic. Djoko was actually tired after the first 2 sets. He lost his last and most important game of the second set after coming back with a series of unforced errors (spraying an easy smash and pushing out FHs). The wind dropping and his more aggressive tennis allowed him to dictate a bit more and shorten the rallies in set 3 and 4 buying him some time but then collapsed completely in set 5.

I am surprised, again SB, that you dod not see a particularly tired Djoko in that 5th set.

Tenez

Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:04 pm

laverfan wrote:
Lest you forget, if Federer was tired after the SF with Del Potro, so was Del Potro, but he [Del Potro] managed to beat Djokovic. Winking

Got your point, a minor disagreement. But Fed had to play a bo5 match where as Delpo a bo3. Murray absolutely wanted the Gold, and with crowd urging him he was more inspired than ever. Fed just couldn't move in that match, though he was trying but his body wasn't helping. He himself acknowledged an emotional drain-out after the marathon semis win.

Delpo was playing a dejected Djo who already has a bronze, how many bronze will he keep fighting for. Delpo wanted it more.


raiders_of_the_lost_ark

Posts : 3499
Join date : 2012-07-20

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:18 pm

Tenez wrote:
In a 5 hour match of 8.5 shot rallies on average, fitness is the main factor. As much as people and players don;t want to find excuses, it 's simply an obversation we ought to make when analysing a match. The 5th set showed a clearly struggling Djokovic. Djoko was actually tired after the first 2 sets. He lost his last and most important game of the second set after coming back with a series of unforced errors (spraying an easy smash and pushing out FHs). The wind dropping and his more aggressive tennis allowed him to dictate a bit more and shorten the rallies in set 3 and 4 buying him some time but then collapsed completely in set 5.

I am surprised, again SB, that you dod not see a particularly tired Djoko in that 5th set.

For me the match wasn't decided on fitness. Djokovic is no less than Murray, perhaps more. Have we not see him last year and this AO? Though I've never seen Murray run as fast or hit any harder, I still wouldn't say Djokovic lost due to tiredness. This is Djokovic we are talking about, he play 5h battle with murray and then 6 h gruesome one against Nadal which involved many long rallys. Last year he he just couldn't tire out. And now suddenly he gets tired? It wasn't like he was playing sublime during any point of the match. The match was full or errors, and Murray won because he made less of those in important moments.

Sets 3,4 had to be the way they went. After being 2-0 sets up, the adrenaline was always going to cool off a bit for Murray. That almost always happens. Players just tend to relax a bit, take the foot a bit off the pedal. Murray was making less errors, but suddenly he went on s spree. I don't see Djo had to do anything special to win those 2 sets. He did almost the same in the 1,2 and lost both.

In the 5th set, the early break did it in. Djo just didn't have enough energy which was more to do with mental fatigue than physical. It was showing in the game. Its more mental than anything else.

raiders_of_the_lost_ark

Posts : 3499
Join date : 2012-07-20

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Tenez Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:37 pm

For me the match wasn't decided on fitness. Djokovic is no less than Murray, perhaps more. Have we not see him last year and this AO?

-------------------------------------

Yes but this year Djoko has certainly shown many signs of a lesser stamina. It was very obvious during the clay season and we cannot ignore the fact that at the AO12 he had a day rest in between and despite that was also tired in that 5th set but was lucky to have played Nadal whose game is even less energy friendly. Murray's game imposes a faster rhythm right to left and left to right than Nadal and this was also key in finishing an exhausted Djoko.

I sincerely think that "mental fatigue" in the 5th set is completely negligeable when lungs have burst!

We coudl talk of mental fatigue is a 5th set of ace fest deciding TBs, but not in such exhausting match!!!

Tenez

Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by noleisthebest Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:15 pm

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
For me the match wasn't decided on fitness.

Sets 3,4 had to be the way they went.

I'm interested to know why you think fitness played no issue, and also why did sets 3 and 4 had to be the way they went?

If fitness was no issue, sets 3 and 4 would've been the same as 1 and 2. After all they were very close and Novak has history of being better then Murray when pressed against the wall.

Who would you say are the fittest guys on tour?

noleisthebest

Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by summerblues Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:40 am

Tenez wrote:I am surprised, again SB, that you dod not see a particularly tired Djoko in that 5th set.
Oh, that is a misunderstanding. I do not think I said anything like that. I do agree that Djokovic looked tired - or at the very least out of sorts - in the fifth set. I suspect we may agree on some of what we saw in that set:

- Tired looking Djokovic

- More aggressive Murray

However, you guys take the view that Murray only looked aggressive because Djokovic was tired, while I think that he does in general play somewhat more aggressively these days, and this was just the continuation of the pattern.

On a separate note, I do not agree about Rafa. Obviously, when I say he never plays aggressively, there is a bit of exaggeration there but I certainly think it is very very rare. I do not think he normally plays aggressively even if his opponent is tired. I certainly do not remember him looking very aggressive in the 5th set of the AO final against Roger. Also, to some extent it depends on what you mean by being "aggressive". Rafa often tries to take control of the point and dictate from the baseline, but he does not normally do it by hitting anything overly aggressive. He just trusts that in a baseline rally, the weight, spin and overall quality of his "rally shot" will make it difficult enough to handle that ultimately the opponent yields the ground. But he hardly ever goes for an outright aggressive hitting that would try to create pressure instantly.

summerblues

Posts : 5068
Join date : 2012-05-19

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Tenez Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:59 am

summerblues wrote:However, you guys take the view that Murray only looked aggressive because Djokovic was tired, while I think that he does in general play somewhat more aggressively these days, and this was just the continuation of the pattern.

He played pretty defensively in set 1 and 2 (excusable because of the wind) but more so in set 3 and 4 with no excuse there.


Rafa often tries to take control of the point and dictate from the baseline, but he does not normally do it by hitting anything overly aggressive. He just trusts that in a baseline rally, the weight, spin and overall quality of his "rally shot" will make it difficult enough to handle that ultimately the opponent yields the ground. But he hardly ever goes for an outright aggressive hitting that would try to create pressure instantly.

Well there is often a healthy safety margins in his shot but teh point we (certainly I) make is that Nadal tends to do the running when his opponent is fresh and tries to hit through him. When his opponent tires and loses his edge to hit close to the lines , Nadal then dictates in turn...to close the match.You can see this best when facing Ferrer for instance.


Last edited by Tenez on Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:03 am; edited 1 time in total

Tenez

Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:47 am

noleisthebest wrote:
raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
For me the match wasn't decided on fitness.

Sets 3,4 had to be the way they went.

I'm interested to know why you think fitness played no issue, and also why did sets 3 and 4 had to be the way they went?

If fitness was no issue, sets 3 and 4 would've been the same as 1 and 2. After all they were very close and Novak has history of being better then Murray when pressed against the wall.

Who would you say are the fittest guys on tour?

All right, I'll answer that.


1. Murray looked fitter, ran faster, hit harder, was aggressive in his play. But in my opinion it was more to do with his determination and desire to win a GS more than anything else. He was already strong and fast like Nadal and Djokovic.

2. Djokovic's fitness was not an issue here. If he can play 5h + 6h tennis and win, the I won't see he should lose on that ground. But if in this US open he was a bit tired, its he himself is to be blamed. It was his decision to play 3+ weeks of continuous tennis knowing that with only 1 week gap US open starts. Why should he get this fitness and being tired as any excuse when he himself chose it?

3. He played on Saturday, only a bit, so it was almost a rest day for him. He played on Sunday, only 3 sets against Ferrer. About 2h of tennis. Thats nothing big for him.

sets 3,4 had to be that way. Have we not seen players relax a bit when they are 2-0 sets up. A little drip in level is normal. It was like how Nadal won the 3rd set USopen 2011 or Fed won the RG 2011 3rd set. I didn't see anything special or notably different in 3,4 sets from Djo which he wasn't doing in 1,2. He had 4 set points in set1, but didn't take those. Murray has never been 2-0 sets up in any slam final, its must be anxious moments for me. He made too many uncharacteristic errors and Djo had the sets.

4. 5Th set was the most important for me and it really showed who wanted the slam more and who was willing to go further to grab it. And it was Djo who looked fatigued, but it was more mental. It wasn't like he was going for too much and missing it, Murray was playing aggressive and Djo had no answers.

5. I won't say Murray played the attrition lung busting game and beat Djokovic. Murray beat him because he played better on important ocassions.

6. I had said this before on another thread when paulcz and you were talking about how free Djokovic will feel after the Olympics burden off him and can pay pressure free. Djokovic is feeling huge pressure and it showed. Its like how Murray felt all the times.

raiders_of_the_lost_ark

Posts : 3499
Join date : 2012-07-20

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by noleisthebest Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:57 am

Rotla,
I disagree with just about everything you said, so will leave it at that.

I look forward to DC tennis later and may go for a game myself... just to dice away USO blues ....


noleisthebest

Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:51 am

noleisthebest wrote:Rotla,
I disagree with just about everything you said, so will leave it at that.

I look forward to DC tennis later and may go for a game myself... just to dice away USO blues ....


See, in a player's career he will get some opportunities to make the best out of it. Murray needed some extra push, something going his way to just add a bit to his chances. Draw opening up, weather conditions helping, good luck with scheduling etc. In this USopen it worked right for him and he had to make the most of it and I appreciate it.

Thats all.

Lets look forward. As I said , fans of all the players have their times to be happy about. All players will have a lot of opportunities to win. We can sit back and enjoy tennis.

raiders_of_the_lost_ark

Posts : 3499
Join date : 2012-07-20

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by noleisthebest Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:57 am

You know me rotla...I don't get upset over tennis (which doesn't mean I take kindly to deliberate wind-ups however subtle they appear to be), it's mant to be a source of pleasure , (ok and an occasional heartbreak US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 31994335, but that's my silly choice which I can't and don't even want to help).

I do enjoy reading how others see a match, the reasoning behind it, analysis etc... two pairs of eyes always see better than one!

noleisthebest

Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by noleisthebest Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:18 am

Tenez wrote:

Well there is often a healthy safety margins in his shot but teh point we (certainly I) make is that Nadal tends to do the running when his opponent is fresh and tries to hit through him. When his opponent tires and loses his edge to hit close to the lines , he then dictates in turn.

Fantastic insight!

noleisthebest

Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Tenez Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:27 am

2. Djokovic's fitness was not an issue here. If he can play 5h + 6h tennis and win, the I won't see he should lose on that ground. But if in this US open he was a bit tired, its he himself is to be blamed. It was his decision to play 3+ weeks of continuous tennis knowing that with only 1 week gap US open starts. Why should he get this fitness and being tired as any excuse when he himself chose it?

I am surprised you try to quantify "hours" spent on the court and think they are all the same. One hour of tennis playing Rafa is not the same as an hour playing Llodra or Federer. When a player is starting to tire in a rally, he has the choice to pull a winner. Unfortunately the very windy conditions forced them both to play very defensive and have those long rallies R to L and L to R for over 2hours and 30mn in those first 2 sets. Just look at the last game of the second set and you'll see already a Djokovic, already tiring, trying to shorten rallies forcing him into UEs.


3. He played on Saturday, only a bit, so it was almost a rest day for him. He played on Sunday, only 3 sets against Ferrer. About 2h of tennis. Thats nothing big for him.

Not only a bit. 3 full sets, at this level it's huge and certainly can make a pretty big difference in a 5th set the following day. This is where I disagree with many posters cause most don't play the game enough to realise how exhausting it is to run an average of 8 shot rallies for 5 hours. Nor do they realise how much difference it makes to have an extra day of rest.

Do people remember McEnroe giving Lendl a beating at the USO in 84? They both had played gruelling sets in the previous semi...and in 85 It was McEnroe having to play Wilander in the semi and Mac completely gave up physically in the final v Lendl after leading 5/2 in the first set. And the game then was not half as physical as it today.

I woudl really invite people to play the game to get a better understanding of what 3 sets make at that level.

sets 3,4 had to be that way. Have we not seen players relax a bit when they are 2-0 sets up.

Once again Murray with 2 sets to love up and finally see the finishing line would do anything but relax. It;s not the common 5 setter for him. It's th eopportunity of his life! He learnt his lesson in the past including in his last slam final 2 months ago. There was nothing wanting to relax in Murray. Maybe nerves getting close to the finishing line...but certainly not a relaxing mode. WHat I saw is Murray getting more defensive cause that's exactly how Murray does once he is ahead. Instead of taking teh match in his hands he puts his opponent into more pressure of finding the lines. Djoko responded well there and was quite gutsy actually.

Tenez

Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by noleisthebest Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:02 pm

Tenez, you've got a Pimms on me for the above post US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 1071211947 !

noleisthebest

Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:04 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Tenez, you've got a Pimms on me for the above post US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 1071211947 !

nitb is a beloved poster here. Any sign of trouble and people come in rescuing her. LF-nitb, I came in. Nitb-me, Tenez steps in. She is a Star

raiders_of_the_lost_ark

Posts : 3499
Join date : 2012-07-20

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Larry Ellison Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:15 pm

ROTLA is absoltely spot on here.

I honestly don't have a preference between Murray and Djokovic, I am a Nadal fan.



But it is clear Tenez, NITB are giving preference to Djokovic here.

Djokovic in the AO this year, played 11 hours in 3 days, he was ok for that.

In 2011 Rome he played 2 days in a row- 3 hour match against Murray on clay, and then against Nadal the next day. Is that not tiring?

Murray won because he edged Djokovic in the key moments, not because Djokovic was tired.

Larry Ellison

Posts : 1222
Join date : 2012-07-21

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by noleisthebest Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:13 pm

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:Tenez, you've got a Pimms on me for the above post US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 1071211947 !

nitb is a beloved poster here. Any sign of trouble and people come in rescuing her. LF-nitb, I came in. Nitb-me, Tenez steps in. She is a Star
I don't think I follow you here, rotla.
What mind of trouble are we talking here?

I was just expressing my admiration with how well Tenez was able to express what I thought as well.
He is a poster with high integrity and I don't think he'd ever say something he does not think for the sake of rescuing anyone.

I have disagreed so many times in the past with him, but it's just the game of tennis, and he knows a lot more than me.
I really enjoy reading his insights and have no problem appreciating them.
I can see that sadly it's easier to criticise and argue than give praise.

You also have great tenacity in replying to LF which I don't...

So long as there is an understanding we are talking abot tennis and nOt life and death here, we should all be one happy family

noleisthebest

Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Tenez Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:16 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:In 2011 Rome he played 2 days in a row- 3 hour match against Murray on clay, and then against Nadal the next day. Is that not tiring?

And what's the logic here? Weren;t people already saying that Djoko was tired in Rome 11? despite playing "only 3 sets"?

It;s not far stretched to think that had djoko won that first set on Monday he may have won in 3 or in 4. So in effect 2 points made the difference in that 1st set, yet some here are trying to draw solid conclusions when in fact the match was down to the flip of the coin under strong wind conds.

It was also a flip of a coin in that Rome 2011 final and in that AO semi final.

Tenez

Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by laverfan Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:01 pm

Tenez wrote: WHat I saw is Murray getting more defensive cause that's exactly how Murray does once he is ahead. Instead of taking teh match in his hands he puts his opponent into more pressure of finding the lines. Djoko responded well there and was quite gutsy actually.

The court conditions were different. Djokovic was floundering trying to control the ball in sets 1 and 2, while 3 and 4, he had a much better handle on the ball.

In OG, Murray kept pounding Federer, even in set 3. Lendl is making Murray into a more aggressive player and breaking the McLagan mould. Lendl has always been a fitness maniac, but he realises that being fit is not a solution to the problem of a slam win, where the players across the net are very close in fitness anyway.

laverfan

Posts : 1073
Join date : 2012-08-14

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Tenez Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:40 pm

laverfan wrote:

The court conditions were different. Djokovic was floundering trying to control the ball in sets 1 and 2, while 3 and 4, he had a much better handle on the ball. .
This is what I have been saying for the last 4 days.


In OG, Murray kept pounding Federer, even in set 3. Lendl is making Murray into a more aggressive player and breaking the McLagan mould. Lendl has always been a fitness maniac, but he realises that being fit is not a solution to the problem of a slam win, where the players across the net are very close in fitness anyway

And how do you explain the difference in the result between the Olympics and Wimbledon 3 weeks earlier?

1 - Murray improving after further advice from Lendl or

2 - Federer may have been fatigued.

Tenez

Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by sphairistike Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:48 pm

I would say it is a combination of both, as it is often the case. But I would put the weights 1. 25%, 2. 75% if not 20-80.

sphairistike

Posts : 589
Join date : 2012-08-20

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by noleisthebest Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:39 pm

sphairistike wrote:I would say it is a combination of both, as it is often the case. But I would put the weights 1. 25%, 2. 75% if not 20-80.

I think he simply was not as motivated as Murray plus the other two. It was a weird match. I have never seen Fed so outpowered.

noleisthebest

Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Tenez Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:08 pm

sphairistike wrote:I would say it is a combination of both, as it is often the case. But I would put the weights 1. 25%, 2. 75% if not 20-80.

Yes that is the easy answer US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 1071211947 but theortically the answer should be unique:

1 - Would 3 weeks of additional coaching by Lendl be enough to turn a 4 set defeat into a 3 set thrashing?

2 - can tiredness explain a 3 set thrashing when 3 weeks before it was a 4 set convincing win?

You know where response stands.US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 4006036031

Tenez

Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Larry Ellison Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:17 pm

Tenez I am not denying that Federer was tired in the Olympic finals, but I simply can't understand how Djokovic, the fittest guy and tour and a stamina freak, can get tired. You said he was looking tired in set 2 of the final.

I don't think he was tired, he's just mentally not right in the bigger moments. Djoko 2011 would have won that first set tie-break but mentally he just get on struggling.

Larry Ellison

Posts : 1222
Join date : 2012-07-21

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Tenez Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:38 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:Tenez I am not denying that Federer was tired in the Olympic finals, but I simply can't understand how Djokovic, the fittest guy and tour and a stamina freak, can get tired. You said he was looking tired in set 2 of the final.

I don't think he was tired, he's just mentally not right in the bigger moments. Djoko 2011 would have won that first set tie-break but mentally he just get on struggling.

As I said, play the game and run full speed for 3 sets, then come back the following day and run 2 and a half hours, full speed again, while twisting your body to send a ball as hard as possible. Just do it at your friendly level...then you tell me whether it's the legs or the mind that will give in first.

I don;t mind seeing Djoko losing at his own game like Nadal lost at his own game. In the comfort of your sofa, you unfortunaletly do not see tiredness in players.

Even Nadal gets tired in teh second set versus Djoko. This is why in 2011 he tried to pull the trigger earlier than Djoko, early in all his 7 matches he lost. Nadal was completely consumed last year at the USO after the 3rd set!!! despite having a day off between semi and final! You know the "super fit" Nadal! Can't you remember? Djoko had back problem and was pushing the ball but Nadal coudl not move anymore!!! So what's so shocking of being tired after 4 sets? especially when 3 others were played teh day before?

Tenez

Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Tenez Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:44 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
sphairistike wrote:I would say it is a combination of both, as it is often the case. But I would put the weights 1. 25%, 2. 75% if not 20-80.

I think he simply was not as motivated as Murray plus the other two. It was a weird match. I have never seen Fed so outpowered.

I actually think, looking at his broad smile in the final, that Fed was actually pleased to have lost. He had the title he really wanted 3 weeks ago and gave Switzerland a great silver medal while keeping a whole crowd happy. I am not saying he lost purposedly but there in Federer something very unique I have not found in any other great champions, that is compassion for the crowd, his opponents and make the sport a better spectacle.

While Pete was all about him and his trophees, Federer seems really keen to make a show of the event. First his artistic tennis proves the point on its own but also he seems keen to share the joy of a crowd being extatic while refusing to become a "created monster" as he called himself once winning everything. When I saw him live in last year London masters final, it coudl not have been more obvious. He led a set and a break up and was serving for the match after a bit more than an hour...neat and clean like a swiss watch. Whether it was consciously or unconsciously Federer gets broken, loses the set and enters the 3rd set without any expression of nerves or stress. He went business as usual and offered us a bit of drama for another set. I even remember he said afterwards that he wished finals woudl be of best of 5 for the pleasure of the crowd.

So sure, Gold woudl have been great but I am sure Federer after 17 slams can see the bigger picture and let a whole stadium and Murray have their day!

Tenez

Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by noleisthebest Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:05 pm

The guy who sat next to me was a bit disappointed with the match and wanted Federer to win at least one set...despite waving the newly bought Union Jack towel as a flag with his girlfriend. I'd say 50% of people were Federer fans, 25% were just happy to be there because they had the ticket, 22% didn't even know the rules of the game....then there was Murray's box and royal box as Murray's fans, and me, who drowned the sorrow of Nole's loss with a few Pimms and tried to make the most of it keeping the brave face on, and waving MY Noleisthebest flag ...

Then, there was a French woman a few rows above me who must have had more than a few Pimms because after the singles match, she was going on and on and on and on with Allez Andee, and Allez Laurrhhha...

The whole scene was quite unreal in many ways, because when you watch an event live, it just goes so much faster .... literally flies before your eyes.

And it was a gorgeous sunny day!

It feels like it hasn't happened now, like a puff in the distance.
It has not sunk with me at all yet that Murray won gold, or that Nole won nothing, such is the power of will not wanting to know US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 123628122 ....

noleisthebest

Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Tenez Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:10 pm

You said the crowd was 50/50 but the loud cheers from th screen seemed really in favour of Murray...though nothing against Fed of course.

Tenez

Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by noleisthebest Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:15 pm

Tenez wrote:You said the crowd was 50/50 but the loud cheers from th screen seemed really in favour of Murray...though nothing against Fed of course.

It was like a football match kind of thing. Almost like what colour shirt is our guy wearing....And nobody cheered Andy Murray as such, it was all orchestrated from a group of volunteers who would start chanting; TEAM G! B! and so on....I liked it very much, even did a couple of Mexican waves....it definitely was not the usual Wimbledon crowd. Majority of those who had the tickets and knew tennis supported Federer, and there were a lot of foreigners there, as well.

It was like a giant picnic atmosphere with two guys chasing the ball in the middle and one who won was "our" guy....

noleisthebest

Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by noleisthebest Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:19 pm

Anyway....how on earth did we deviate from USO final to Olympic gold match ....

noleisthebest

Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Tenez Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:27 pm

Must have been fun to be part of it!

Tenez

Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by noleisthebest Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:38 pm

Tenez wrote:Must have been fun to be part of it!
It was, I got so much out of it: there was rain and huge queues ( about half a mile long before the first gate) before I could even get in (apparently everybody turned up at the same time, which makes sense as the two matches started at the same time), then I saw Williams sisters win their doubles gold under the roof (was my first time with the roof on), then I went out and found out what went on with Nole's match, had some Pimms, bought myself an olympic T-shirt and took some photos, then went in and caught the ball ball-kids were throwing into the crowd, (that was quite crazy and funny as I caught it all on my phone, as well), by the time Pimms took it's cheeky delayed effect, I was in the zone and everything was great!
Then there was the doubles match, and a lot of new crowd got in, mainly athletes from Belarus, Murray's girlfriend sat quite close and had the bunch of flowers Murray was given at the medal presentation, she was happy to pose for a photo with whomever asked.....so it was a very happy,gentle and sweet atmosphere, warm as well.

Not as sharp and tennis-y as during "normal" Wimbledon. It was more being there, soaking up the unique atmosphere and experience than enjoying tennis.

Because I went by myself I met a lot of various kinds of people and everyone was really happy: volunteers, old lady from Poland, a funkily, retro-dressed couple who could not stop grinning for some reason, quite a few Latin Americans who all cheered for Federer, because we al lstayed al lday there, we got to know each other and I ended up telling them tennis rules and who won medals at the last Olympics, I was the source of all tennis info...which was not difficult at all US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 1071211947


Last edited by noleisthebest on Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

noleisthebest

Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Larry Ellison Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:40 pm

Tenez wrote:

I actually think, looking at his broad smile in the final, that Fed was actually pleased to have lost. He had the title he really wanted 3 weeks ago and gave Switzerland a great silver medal while keeping a whole crowd happy.
So sure, Gold woudl have been great but I am sure Federer after 17 slams can see the bigger picture and let a whole stadium and Murray have their day!
You really are a big fan Bubbly
If he wins, it's because he wants to, if he loses, then it's also because he wants too!

Larry Ellison

Posts : 1222
Join date : 2012-07-21

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Tenez Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:05 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:
Tenez wrote:

I actually think, looking at his broad smile in the final, that Fed was actually pleased to have lost. He had the title he really wanted 3 weeks ago and gave Switzerland a great silver medal while keeping a whole crowd happy.
So sure, Gold woudl have been great but I am sure Federer after 17 slams can see the bigger picture and let a whole stadium and Murray have their day!
You really are a big fan US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 83870220
If he wins, it's because he wants to, if he loses, then it's also because he wants too!

I guess when at 31 you have just won your 17th slam and 7th Wimbledon, you don't look at things quite the same way. Listen to what he says to Sue Baker after his defeat....I have never heard someone sound so happy to be runner up.

Tenez

Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Tenez Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:10 pm

He even says "I am happy Andy got the gold today"!!! YOU can't beat that! US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 2033450363

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2vAx90Kf8w

Tenez

Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Tenez Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:13 pm

Because I went by myself I met a lot of various kinds of people and everyone was really happy: volunteers, old lady from Poland, a funkily, retro-dressed couple who could not stop grinning for some reason, quite a few Latin Americans who all cheered for Federer, because we al lstayed al lday there, we got to know each other and I ended up telling them tennis rules and who won medals at the last Olympics, I was the source of all tennis info...which was not difficult at all US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 1071211947

Yes I like tennis crowds in general! It's a cool sport and attracts usually the right people.

Tenez

Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Larry Ellison Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:14 pm

I think what happened was:
-He was a fatigued from the Del Potro match.
-Murray was playing very good tennis.
-In the big points in the first set Murray played better, which deflated Federer further.
-Federer was gracious in defeat, and smiled in front of a British crows.

I know you are a Federer fan, so you draw ridiculous inferences from little things.
Of course he would smile in the interview, what did you think he would due in the medal ceremony? Start crying?
He wanted to win- did you see his emotions after he beat Del Potro in the semi. He yelped, kissed his badge, and I even saw a tear in his eye. Rarely you see that from Roger.
To say he lost because he didn't want to win, is wishful thinking.

Larry Ellison

Posts : 1222
Join date : 2012-07-21

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by noleisthebest Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:17 pm

Tenez wrote:
Because I went by myself I met a lot of various kinds of people and everyone was really happy: volunteers, old lady from Poland, a funkily, retro-dressed couple who could not stop grinning for some reason, quite a few Latin Americans who all cheered for Federer, because we al lstayed al lday there, we got to know each other and I ended up telling them tennis rules and who won medals at the last Olympics, I was the source of all tennis info...which was not difficult at all US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 1071211947

Yes I like tennis crowds in general! It's a cool sport and attracts usually the right people.

Absolutely!

The best thing about the crowd is that you can have a Nole and Fed sit next to each other and have no arguments at all. Tennis people are happy people US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 650269930

noleisthebest

Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Tenez Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:26 pm

Amritia3ee wrote:I know you are a Federer fan, so you draw ridiculous inferences from little things.
Of course he would smile in the interview, what did you think he would due in the medal ceremony? Start crying?

Don't take things to extremes . I did not say that Federer lost on purpose. I just say that he may not have fought as hard as his usual.

When was the last time you heard Nadal, Djoko or anybody else say I am happy my opponent won today? Which is exactly what Federer says!

Tenez

Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Larry Ellison Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:28 pm

Tenez wrote:
Amritia3ee wrote:I know you are a Federer fan, so you draw ridiculous inferences from little things.
Of course he would smile in the interview, what did you think he would due in the medal ceremony? Start crying?

Don't take things to extremes . I did not say that Federer lost on purpose. I just say that he may not have fought as hard as his usual.

When was the last time you heard Nadal, Djoko or anybody else say I am happy my opponent won today? Which is exactly what Federer says!
Djokovic said he was very happy for Andy this USO.

Larry Ellison

Posts : 1222
Join date : 2012-07-21

Back to top Go down

US OPEN MEN´S FINAL - Page 7 Empty Re: US OPEN MEN´S FINAL

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 7 of 8 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum