Masters 1000: Indian Wells

Told you NITB....to beat Nadal, Djoko still has to cover the miles!

gallery play wrote:Rafa played well that set, but when it really counts he's just too nervous.
Djoko quite the opposite, he didn't play well but when it really counts, he's calm

Hi GP - Most likely. Did npt see it but not surprise. Djoko knows he will be the better one over the distance. Nadal's stamina disappears quickly v Djoko....no different than Murray.

Tenez wrote:Told you NITB....to beat Nadal, Djoko still has to cover the miles!

It's not like he minds though...

gallery play wrote:

Tenez wrote:Told you NITB....to beat Nadal, Djoko still has to cover the miles!

It's not like he minds though...

Oh no. It's his main strength!

Tenez wrote:

gallery play wrote:

Tenez wrote:Told you NITB....to beat Nadal, Djoko still has to cover the miles!

It's not like he minds though...

Oh no. It's his main strength!

Do I sense you are backing Nadal for teh first time on this one?

I usually stand by the challenger....but here I am actually pretty open. I woudl not mind a tough 3 setter to give Rao a better chance tomorrow.

Tenez wrote:

gallery play wrote:Rafa played well that set, but when it really counts he's just too nervous.
Djoko quite the opposite, he didn't play well but when it really counts, he's calm

Hi GP - Most likely. Did npt see it but not surprise. Djoko knows he will be the better one over the distance. Nadal's stamina disappears quickly v Djoko....no different than Murray.

Hi T, Rafa had setpoint, he obviously had to win that one, badly.

SP? wow...that was close. I still want Djoko to win.

Tenez wrote:

Tenez wrote:

gallery play wrote:

Tenez wrote:Told you NITB....to beat Nadal, Djoko still has to cover the miles!

It's not like he minds though...

Oh no. It's his main strength!

Do I sense you are backing Nadal for teh first time on this one?

I usually stand by the challenger....but here I am actually pretty open. I woudl not mind a tough 3 setter to give Rao a better chance tomorrow.

Nah, i can never support Nadal, for the right reasons that is. In matches like these, i just want the one who's behind to fight back and make the battle as brutal as possible

gallery play wrote:Nah, i can never support Nadal, for the right reasons that is. In matches like these, i just want the one who's behind to fight back and make the battle as brutal as possible

Yep....Until Djoko gets to 15 slams...I won't back Nadal either!

Both men hit twice as many ue's than winners. That pretty much sums it up

Tenez wrote:

gallery play wrote:Nah, i can never support Nadal, for the right reasons that is. In matches like these, i just want the one who's behind to fight back and make the battle as brutal as possible

Yep....Until Djoko gets to 15 slams...I won't back Nadal either!

That won't take long...The Serb has no challengers, and won't have many upcoming 4-6 slams.
It seems only a freak perfomance like the one Stan pulled, can stop him

gallery play wrote:

Tenez wrote:

gallery play wrote:Nah, i can never support Nadal, for the right reasons that is. In matches like these, i just want the one who's behind to fight back and make the battle as brutal as possible

Yep....Until Djoko gets to 15 slams...I won't back Nadal either!

That won't take long...The Serb has no challengers, and won't have many upcoming 4-6 slams.
It seems only a freak perfomance like the one Stan pulled, can stop him

Not sure about that. Some good players are coming along. Even Nishi on a good day can do lots of damage. Rao at Wimbeldon can easily stuff him too....and Federer... only kidding about the last one.

Djoko looks good v Nadal but vulnerable against more aggressive players. Nadal has absolutely no weapon anymore v Djoko.

Wow !

Actually a much closer than I thought.
Nadal had set point in the first set, and was 5-5 in the tiebreak. However given Djokovic is the number one, that is crucial for Nadal.

The second set Djokovic had the momentum and red-lined at times, and Nadal at this age doesn't have the fire and spark to negate that.
The last game where Djokovic broke, was a joke ! Nadal played an impeccable game, Djokovic's returns were just ridiculous.

Haha bye Nadal.

FedererKing wrote:Haha bye Nadal.

Did you watch the match !!
Obviously no one thought that Nadal would win, but it was a much better goodbye than any Nadal fans were expecting.

It's obvious though that Nadal has declined, meanwhile Djokovic as GP just said has: a) lots of confidence b) very little serious competition at the top.

He lost - and that's what counts.  Another set back for Nadal, who should have been beaten by a rank 50+

In case you haven't got the memo yet - Nadal is done. He is now reaching his 30s and his strength is failing him.  Unlike Federer all he has going for him is running and defence, both of which he is no longer up to scratch with compared to his physical prime.

It's over :P

DONALD TRUMP wrote:Wow !

Actually a much closer than I thought.
Nadal had set point in the first set, and was 5-5 in the tiebreak. However given Djokovic is the number one, that is crucial for Nadal.

The second set Djokovic had the momentum and red-lined at times, and Nadal at this age doesn't have the fire and spark to negate that.
The last game where Djokovic broke, was a joke ! Nadal played an impeccable game, Djokovic's returns were just ridiculous.

Unfortuantely I missed the first set but I think Djoko was not at his best according to GP. And he clearly was not that good in the first 4 games of teh second set, making quite a few errors.

Having said that I am pretty sure Nadal played well in that first set and He was not that bad in that second set. Just a bit tired physically and mentally....I guess this is where being straved of 20 extra minutes of breathing takes its toll versus Nadal nowadays.

DONALD TRUMP wrote:

FedererKing wrote:Haha bye Nadal.

Did you watch the match !!
Obviously no one thought that Nadal would win, but it was a much better goodbye than any Nadal fans were expecting.

It's obvious though that Nadal has declined, meanwhile Djokovic as GP just said has: a) lots of confidence b) very little serious competition at the top.  

So he has declined more in 2014 and 15 but improved in 16 from 14 to 15. Bloody hell. Those players nowadays don't know how to decline.

FedererKing wrote:He lost - and that's what counts.  Another set back for Nadal, who should have been beaten by a rank 50+

Who are you telling this to? I agree with you, Nadal has clearly declined, it's Tenez who disagrees mate.

Pretty simple, Tenez.  Nadal is not the same player he was and nor is Federer.  It's that simple.  Decline is permanent. The results back this up.

FedererKing wrote:Pretty simple, Tenez.  Nadal is not the same player he was and nor is Federer.  It's that simple.  Decline is permanent. The results back this up.

Yeah, yeah i know. Djoko is also 29 is a few weeks so he has been declining for years now. Everybody declines. Must be easy to be a champion nowadays since Laver declined. The world is declining....How old are you? You must be declining fast too.

Take care!

I am declining. Everybody is as they approach their 30s or are already there (I have already started finding it really difficult to remember names - and my legs feel heavier after tennis than they used to do).  That's a scientific fact, as I keep reminding you.  It's not limited to just the physical, either. And it gets worse the older you are.  I doubt there will ever be a 50 year old Slam champion.

Physical degradation is not a myth or a hypothesis, it's a fact.  So is reflex degradation among a host of other changes.  This leads to more losses.  That leads to less confidence.  That leads to more losses.  And eventually, no more winning.

Djokovic won't be at the top for much longer. Nadal and Federer are already done (barring the odd good run). Murray is joining them. That's the trend, not the exception.

I never thought I'd ever have to argue with someone over what age does to a human body.  It's almost like you're incapable of just accepting scientific fact.  These things have been studied for years - and the entire history of tennis bears it out. It also seems a lot of pundits and former players are oblivious to this, as well, because they think Djokovic has a realistic chance of reaching 17 Slams, when the reality is he has next to zero chance.

The way I saw the match, Nole had some back issues.

In the first set, he was getting used to Nadal's "new" ball, which I think is now heavier than ever being struck from the baseline.

Nadal really played his best ever.

How do I know?

I wasn't able to actually watch the rallies for longer than a minute or so per 4-5 games, it was again extremely physical.

The only difference was that Nadal can't dictate play from baseline  against Nole who is just too good a defender and able to turn that defence into attack esp with the BH.
That's where his superb athleticism and strong core shine.
Also his returning was excellent at times so Nadal could do even less, though in the  first set, there were some odd mistimings on body seves.

Nadal will be much tougher to beat than last year for many players in top 10, though.
he can still do a lot of damage with his relentless retriving and if given enough time he will be belting his FH hard for many to return if not fast on their feet.

Nadal does a lot of things well now again, well enough to keep squeezing through.

I don't think he'll win any more slams, but if Nole stumbles, he'll be ready to pounce.

Really happy for Nole's win
I enjoyed a few of his FHs.

Not many people coudl have beaten Nadal this week. Yes Zverev was close cause he has a great serve and Nadal's moonballs come perfect for his tall frame.

His returns have greatly improved. In the past he coudl stand 5m behind the baseline throwing his huge moonballs and hoped for UEs ....and they came fast and thick back then. Nowadays however they all know how to time those kind of balls. Nadal simply cannot afford to stand back nowadays, especially on the return cause then he always on the back foot and is at the mercy of guys like Fognini or Verdasco and many more.

Like federer's game had to change after 2006, Nadal's game also has to change. Unlike some ridiculous comment about fitness decline at 29, the game simply moves on and they all need to adapt, like Djoko will have to adapt to a mature Rao, Kyrgios, Nishi, Zverev and so on.

I think the only thing missing now is confidence, that's why it was great Nole beat him yesterday.

Esp in the second set where he relaxed a little and was able to play more freely.

Nadal can't touch him.

Come RG, he will again be the top 3 favourite along with Nole and Stan.

He is running as well as ever and there is no sign at all of any physical declining.

The fact he is able to hit the ball so hard from the baseline is a testament to how hard he must have been working in the last two years.

In theory he should be much more beatable, but in reality he will be tough to shake off.

Let's not forget, superb 2015 Fed struggled to beat him on fast indoor in Basel last year.

And he destroyed Nishi who was playing quite well this week.

I heard he reverted to his old racquet and old strings. That did a lot for his confidence this year.

Reg Nishi, Nishi destroyed himself though Nadal played some spectacular key crucial points.

We really do see different things.

luvsports! wrote:We really do see different things.

And what do you see?

"In the first set, he was getting used to Nadal's "new" ball, which I think is now heavier than ever being struck from the baseline.

Nadal really played his best ever."


I think on average his shots are not as powerful, less spinny, shorter and is not playing his best ever.

Tenez wrote:I heard he reverted to his old racquet and old strings. That did a lot for his confidence this year.

Imteresting.
What strings did he try last year?

Tenez wrote:
Reg Nishi, Nishi destroyed himself though Nadal played some spectacular key crucial points.

I'd never used word spectacular to describe anything Nadal does.
I saw some good digs and shots on the run that were successful thanks to his super-bicep, that's about it.

I can't say Nishi destroyed himself because that's how he is- he has a tiny heart.

I keep telling you he is silky and no amount of experience, maturity etc will change it.

He just doesn't have the aggression in him...it's always short lasted for some reason as if he does out f duress, a bit like Murray.

He looks like he has hit a glass ceiling with his tennis..I don't know what it is, maybe pressure...there is no reason why he shouldn't be a fantastic player, yet he is playing worse.

luvsports! wrote:"In the first set, he was getting used to Nadal's "new" ball, which I think is now heavier than ever being struck from the baseline.

Nadal really played his best ever."


I think on average his shots are not as powerful, less spinny, shorter and is not playing his best ever.

Are you talking about last night's match?

If it wasn't for Nole's super agile body he'd've won.

Now, you certainly don't beat Nole with short balls etc.

I thought his ball was extremely energised, moreso than ever.
That's why Nole was able to soak its pace and return it better once he got used to it in the 2nd set.

Nadal would've beaten anybody else last night. Including Fed.

The losses he has had this year, Verdasco, Thiem, Cuevas - Nadal was not playing better than ever. 

People can improve, people can decline. 
I just think you are wrong re Nadal's ball.

I don't think Nadal's ball is different than in the past. In the past Nadal played great from Jan to June and crap from July to Dec. So one coudl have said he "declined" every year from June. His arm is punching at least as hard as 2013. The difference is nowadays he has no choice but to play closer to the baseline. He said it himself and this the reason he had poor results the last 2 years. He tried to but coudl not do it. This week is teh first time I saw him do it consistently.

The mistake most do here is to think that everything is in a player's racquet. Tennis evolves. I showed you LS how waht you thought was a great Nadal in AO 2009 semi turned out to be a 20% slower pace than what Nadal has to cope with nowadays.

I am surprised that you think you see it right when the stats are clearly showing something different. I have got to say that what I observe is very much in line with what the stats show. That is the difference I am afraid.

Likewise you had Donald say that Nadal was playing close to the baseline in 2013 when clearly he was not standing nearly as close as IW this year (see clips posted above).

I do not see Nadal punching harder, however he certainly gave Djoko less time to dictate than in the past, by standing closer. And yes Djoko 2015/16 is way better than Djoko 13. That's a clear fact too.

You yourself have said Nadal's ball is not as spinny repeatedly.

luvsports! wrote:You yourself have said Nadal's ball is not as spinny repeatedly.

When I said that, I felt it that way. But that was in 15. I am now talking of what I saw this week. I do not believe an arm strength declines that easily. We saw Pete serve very well after he retired. Sure the fitness goes down fast once you retire but an arm strength remains long after. Has anyone seen the foreman/Holyfield boxing match? Foreman punches at 42 almost destroyed Holyfield. Nadal is 29/30, no way his arm strength is going to decline. But certainly less time between points, faster ball coming at him or him trying to stand closer is going to affect his power, confidence, consistency etc...

I always said I was not sure what was wrong with him in 2015. Remember, I said it was difficult to pinpoint. But this week he played extremely well. Much better than in 2015....which clearly means that his 2015 performance had nothing to do with physical decline cause this is not reversible. So just that fact alone, the fact he now plays better than in 2015 contradict those who said age was teh reason he went down in 15.

No different than those who said Fed declined in 2013 because of age when clearly he had a back problem. Twice those same people were proved wrong.

luvsports! wrote:The losses he has had this year, Verdasco, Thiem, Cuevas - Nadal was not playing better than ever. 

People can improve, people can decline. 
I just think you are wrong re Nadal's ball.

Did you watch the match against Djokovic yesterday?
Did you see how har hit and fast his ball was?
Where do you think a ball is hit faster from 4 m or on the baseline..and why?

luvsports! wrote:You yourself have said Nadal's ball is not as spinny repeatedly.

Yesterday it was. I even think it was spinnier.
Any stats on his spin last night anyone?

I know how Nole handles Nadal inside out, and I saw how tough Nadal's ball was for him in the first set.

Can you explain why?

Nole was playing crap as shown by his UE count. Same with Rafa.

luvsports! wrote:Nole was playing crap as shown by his UE count. Same with Rafa.

But LS!!!

They are pros...they don't play crap unless they are injured.
Especially low risk players like Nole and Nadal.

Think!!!

Why did Nole play crap?
Why did he make those UEs? (in the first set)

After this discussion...I want the top 10 average age to drop!!! Allez Rao!!!!

I don't mind if Rao the bro wins, but... Idemo Nole Majstore!!!

If Nole wins this he equals Nadal's masters record of 27 (I think) and becomes the first player to win IW 5 times, everything to play for!

noleisthebest wrote:

luvsports! wrote:Nole was playing crap as shown by his UE count. Same with Rafa.

But LS!!!

They are pros...they don't play crap unless they are injured.
Especially low risk players like Nole and Nadal.

Think!!!

Why did Nole play crap?
Why did he make those UEs? (in the first set)

Are you saying people can't have off days?

And Rao's serve is not great when facing a good returner.

In the first game, Djoko did amazing retrieving.

Tenez wrote:And Rao's serve is not great when facing a good returner.

In the first game, Djoko did amazing retrieving.

Is that a compliment?

Djoko mouvement is absurd! Completely absurd!

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:And Rao's serve is not great when facing a good returner.

In the first game, Djoko did amazing retrieving.

Is that a compliment?

Not from me! I never watched tennis for mouvement. I don't mind it when coupled with great shots but when Mouvement is the centrepiece and main weapon, not a fan. On the contrary.

Did you see this Djoko fall in that point before Rao's FH?
Was that to take the attention of Rao before he pulled his FH down the line?

Tenez wrote:Did you see this Djoko fall in that point before Rao's FH?
Was that to take the attention of Rao before he pulled his FH down the line?

No I didn't see it.

No, I didn't see it. Not his style. That's more Murray's repertoire.