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Pray For France

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:13 am

Tenez wrote:Matter for thoughts:

Who looks more aggressive? A Lion or Lamb? Which one developed through hundred thousand of years of evolution huge theeth, sharp claws? Which countries have the Lion or Eagle as emblems?

Who has developed all this magnificent arsenal, from guns and canons to the atomic bomb? The Muslims?

Here is another good religious lesson: "You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

That's an absolutely absurd argument.  The reason Muslims didn't invent the Atom bomb is because they couldn't.  Because their culture and education is inferior due to their short sighted and totalitarian religion. Nearly all big strides in science are by countries that were / are Christian,  Jewish, or secular.  Japan, Britiain, America and so on.  If you're going to spout twaddle about how the big bad West invented the A Bomb, you have to also acknowledge the massive benefits that it also brought - such as electric - oh... and NUCLEAR POWER. Soon to be Fusion. Is the irony completely lost on you that without the West, you wouldn't even have the internet or a computer to spout your twaddle on?

Clearly, you are not just an apologist and appeaser - but also a West hater and propagandist.  I really don't know how you can sit there going on about how evil the West is when most Muslim countries are absent of even the most BASIC human rights.  Where were you condemning the slaughter of that woman the other week?  Placed into a hole and stoned to death.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:28 pm

Clearly, you did not get the point. But that doesn't surprise me. You don't get many points after all!




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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:15 am

Tenez wrote:Clearly, you did not get the point. But that doesn't surprise me. You don't get many points after all!




That's your response?  I guess like the Muslim fanatics your mind is just not possible to communicate with when someone disagrees with you.  Looking back at the replies on this thread, it's obvious to everyone that your opinion is crackerjack nonsense and that you aren't even giving anyone else's view the time of day.  West = Bad.  East = Bad but because of West.  West = Bad because they invented A Bomb, but not good at all because everything else they invented is just going to be ignored.

That's a great argument. You can deflect all you like, but your posts are saying exactly that.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by DECIMA on Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:21 am

Tenez; you keep avoiding any questions directly; answering each in the abstract along with a load of other questions based on conspiracy theories that are impossible to prove or disprove.

I'll make this point, as it's relevant to what FK is saying as well as the larger discussion in the OP:
No one is saying that we blame religion for all bad things religious people do. If a Christian/Muslim/Hindu robs a HMV store and steals a PS4, I don't think anyone will be randomly blaming their religion.
But there are clearly cases when religion does have a negative affect on both individuals and society. I'll go through a logical paragraph statement by statement, and I dare you to challenge ANY of my facts.

FACT: Firstly when comparing religions at the moment, it must be acknowledged that in this day and age, Muslims are more likely to follow their religion more seriously and take thier holy book and words of the prophet as literally true (compared to Christians lets say, who are more likely to just take a general guideline rather than looking at Bible closely). So basically looking at the content of holy texts is crucial for analysis of Muslim-majority countries.

FACT: Women's rights in the Koran are almost non existent. It is stated that women are basically beneath men in their status, and that they are inferior in their intelligence; and thus their word in court even in rape cases is off less value than a man. Challegne me on this, and I can find the exact words.
FACT: When looking at male:female inquality, 9 out of the 10 worst countries are Muslims majority countries (exception is Ivory Coast). Something I found shocking was that in the vast majority of countries in the Middle East, men can marry 4 women at once, while women can only marry 1 man.

FACT: Gay rights in the Koran are even worse than women's rights. In the Koran, homosexuality is condemned; in the Hadith it is said that people engaging in homosexual activities should die.
FACT:  There are six countries where people can get the death penalty for homosexuality, and five of them are Muslim majority countries. 9 out of the 10 worst countries for gays in terms of gay rights are Muslim majority (exception is the Christian Uganda). Homosexuality is illegal in the majority of Muslim-majority countries. Surely you don't think that's a good thing Tenez ?

FACT: Koran, despite having some peaceful verses, has many verses which are inflammatory towards non-Muslims, with special incitement reserved for apostates who leave the religion.
FACT: Dozens of Islamic countries have laws against apostasy, with some having a death penalty for it.
Meanwhile the inflammatory verses against the non-Muslims are very much linked to the propoganda of terrorist groups such as ISIS. It is easier to spread this propoganda when you don't have to make it up completely, but can point out selected verses from holy books which many people already believe is the literal word of God.

I'd dare you to challenge any of that Tenez. I can find the exact quotes, I know the exact countries which have specific laws. The last paragrah is most relevant to the OP and the discussion so far.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:51 am

I'd also add to that the the more peaceful verses nearly always come chronologically earlier before Muhammad was waging his jihads.  Not good if the Imam at your local mosque knows that.


Which verse should Muslims follow?  According to the doctrine of abrogation, the later texts supersede the earlier whenever there are inconsistencies, or they are said to “abrogate” the earlier texts. Therefore, a Muslim simply needs to know which verse came earlier, and which came later.  The importance of the doctrine of abrogation cannot be understated.  In a mosque in the city of Kufa, Ali b. Abi Talib once saw people gathering around the judge, Abdur-Rahman. The judge was confusing that which is permissible with that which is not. Ali asked him whether he could tell the abrogative verses from the abrogated; he said that he could not. Ali then grabbed the man's ear, twisted it, and said: "you perish, and you make others perish. Do not judge in our mosque anymore.''
That is how important it is; the person who doesn’t know abrogation shall “perish and make others perish”, according to Ali Ibn abi Talib.


http://www.inquiryintoislam.com/2010/06/what-is-abrogation-in-islam.html

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:27 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCQWaV2hSwY

It's scary what's going on these days with regards to free speech.  Sadly, I doubt Tenez will bother watching this video or any video that disagrees with his current views.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:47 pm

The point is, we need to consider the whole situation from a human point of view, not us and them tribal mindset.

As things are, noone is a winner except for a select few running this bloodbath.

Today it's "the terrorists" tomorrow it will be you and me.

If you tolerate this, then your children will be next.
It is our duty to question and suspect, not sell our souls  for 30 pieces of silver.

Islmic world was quiet for hundreds of years until West rattled it.
Now why did that happen?

ps
How Muslims live in their own countries is their own business, btw.
You wouldn't like someone barging into your house taking over your position and running your household, so why should they?
In fact, here in "free" Britain, that's what Big Brother state has already done...we are so "free", one of the most frequently used phrases I hear is: "You can't say THAT!"

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Re: Pray For France

Post by luvsports! on Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:45 pm

This is becoming obscene. 
The refusal to criticise one iota about religion is beyond belief.

You are Christian right nitb?
It is awful what is going on in the middle east but religious groups, be it Jews, CHristians and Muslims were all slaughtering each other by the millions.

Have you not heard of the Muslim conquests? The Arab-Byzantine wars? Islam's conquest of North Africa, Egypt, Trkey, SPain - killing millions upon millions of Christians.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:47 pm

luvsports! wrote:This is becoming obscene. 
The refusal to criticise one iota about religion is beyond belief.

You are Christian right nitb?
It is awful what is going on in the middle east but religious groups, be it Jews, CHristians and Muslims were all slaughtering each other by the millions.

Have you not heard of the Muslim conquests? The Arab-Byzantine wars? Islam's conquest of North Africa, Egypt, Trkey, SPain - killing millions upon millions of Christians.
What is beyond belief is that you don't and, it seems, will never get the point.

Have you ever criticised a knife? knives have killed milions of people ....yet we use them every day to eat and is a very helpful tool. It's who and what we do with the knife that matters not the knife itself. No-one criticise science yet science can wipe the planet off human being and in fact any life....so what? Are we going to blame Einstein for discovering that Matter equals Energy?
Did Mohamed say that Muslims had to conquer all those countries? Did Jesus say we had to do crusades?

Religion can be used in the same way. It's humans who kill...not religion. No religion tells you to kill other humans for no reason....they just tell you to kill your own daemons or idols.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by DECIMA on Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:29 am

You're just saying exactly the same thing as before, ignoring my rebuttal to your exact point.
Science is not similar to religion in this context:
Science and religion are both malleable to human behaviour; BUT as a doctrine of what to do, science is neutral while religion is the diametric opposite (it claims to know the divine eternal truth and gives specific guidelines in holy books).

Tenez wrote:No religion tells you to kill other humans for no reason....
Oh really ?
Maybe your hawk-eye didn't see it Tenez, but I wrote a pretty convincing post at 'Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:21 am' on impact of religion and how it ties in with problem in the Middle East. Unfortunately you somehow missed it and then carried on parroting on your previous talking points.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:18 am

Basically Tenez hates the West but will continue using everything the West invented while shitting all over the West.  It sounds like another group I know....

I don't think he's even reading what we write - I think he's skipping over large parts entirely.

as for "no reason"

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

Plenty of "no reasons" for violence in the Koran - although you could argue there is a reason - CONQUEST.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:08 am

One day you may realise that the sudden islamisation of the Middle East is a necessity and direct result of our economies collapsing.

It is no coincidence that the Islamisation of the Middle East started with the first Oil crisis in 1972 and followed a perfectly diametrically opposed evolution to our economies.

Islamisation is the solution to our crisis. We created it as it provides the necessary wars that keep the ship afloat. This is why all our western governments (be they Left or right wings) are so keen to keep on bombing.

Don't argue against me...try to understand the big picture. I know quite a bit more about politics than tennis actually...but one can't simply tell it all cause the truth is really mind blowing and can only be understood through personal research.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:12 am

The conquests of Muhammad are well documented and began circa 600 AD.  You are ignoring the entire history of Islam.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:05 pm

luvsports! wrote:This is becoming obscene. 
The refusal to criticise one iota about religion is beyond belief.

You are Christian right nitb?
It is awful what is going on in the middle east but religious groups, be it Jews, CHristians and Muslims were all slaughtering each other by the millions.

Have you not heard of the Muslim conquests? The Arab-Byzantine wars? Islam's conquest of North Africa, Egypt, Trkey, SPain - killing millions upon millions of Christians.

As I said before LS, there is nothing spiritual going on in this situation.

The problem is in us - people - we are all sinful.

And  because we don't like to see ourselves as bad,  we start finding excuses...be it individually or on a social level.

So long as we can find someone wlse to blame - we are fine.

Do you see yourself as good?
Do you think world without religion would be good?

Is science your god?
And how good is that god?

Thanks to science, two million babies get murdered through abortion EVERY YEAR.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by luvsports! on Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:42 pm

That includes people who were raped.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:02 pm

luvsports! wrote:That includes people who were raped.
See?
The first thing you do is look for an excuse.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by DECIMA on Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:14 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Is science your god?
And how good is that god?

Thanks to science, two million babies get murdered through abortion EVERY YEAR.
No, you're getting confused in exactly the same way Tenez did.
The utility of science can depend on human behaviour, but it in itself is not a doctrine; is it neither 'good' or 'bad'. Seems to be a standard cop-out response from Tenez whenever the actual doctrine of religion is put under the microscope.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by DECIMA on Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:18 pm

Tenez wrote:
I know quite a bit more about politics than tennis actually...but one can't simply tell it all cause the truth is really mind blowing and can only be understood through personal research.
Such great research that it can only be done personally and can't be presented to others (and I'm talking about actual evidence, not abstract conspiracy theories).

Tenez wrote:One day you may realise that the sudden islamisation of the Middle East is a necessity and direct result of our economies collapsing.

It is no coincidence that the Islamisation of the Middle East started with the first Oil crisis in 1972 and followed a perfectly diametrically opposed evolution to our economies.
You have a real lack of knowledge it seems in the history of Islam and the history of the Middle East.
But instead of trying to avoid it, why not address my post on how religious texts and barbaric acts in the middle east have some clear connections ?

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:25 pm

DONALD TRUMP wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
Is science your god?
And how good is that god?

Thanks to science, two million babies get murdered through abortion EVERY YEAR.
No, you're getting confused in exactly the same way Tenez did.
The utility of science can depend on human behaviour, but it in itself is not a doctrine; is it neither 'good' or 'bad'. Seems to be a standard cop-out response from Tenez whenever the actual doctrine of religion is put under the microscope.

That' purely wrong.

Science gives you the Laws of physics: E=MC2, religions gives you the spiritual laws: You will not kill, you will not steal, commit adultery etc...

What's the difference? Problem is that the religions have been manipulated by humans and sometimes the texts are not what they were meant to be...no different than in Science. Some make mistakes and it takes centuries to discover that a theory which was right suddenly becomes wrong. The other problem religion has is that it deals with matter which is beyond this physical world.

Science itself becomes very useless when we reach the outer limits.
Ex: 2 parallel lines never meet! However 2 parallel lines cross at infinity. Both are true in science.

The point again is that religion is subtle matter. If 8 idiots who have smoked spliff and done bugger all of their whole life , never read the Koran, suddenly can overnight commit a mass crime in the name of religion are not religious to me. In fact those who blame religion on such acts are not very honest.

Has anyone seen the movie Mission? Excellent Movie! Massacres done in the name of religion.....but the real motive was not religion.....simply power as the real victims, like with Daesh, are the really religious people. I believe 90% of Daesh victims are Muslims!

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Re: Pray For France

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:07 pm

I saw it. Was a big de Niro fan.

This  film however captures the essence of "religion" and faith well, Breaking The Waves.

Anyone seen it?


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Re: Pray For France

Post by DECIMA on Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:21 pm

Tenez wrote:
DONALD TRUMP wrote:
The utility of science can depend on human behaviour, but it in itself is not a doctrine; is it neither 'good' or 'bad'. Seems to be a standard cop-out response from Tenez whenever the actual doctrine of religion is put under the microscope.

That' purely wrong.

Science gives you the Laws of physics: E=MC2,  religions gives you the spiritual laws: You will not kill, you will not steal, commit adultery etc...
That's exactly what I was saying?
Science tries to find out facts based on evidence, while religion is a doctrine which gives you spiritual laws and codes to follow.

Tenez wrote:If 8 idiots who have smoked spliff and done bugger all of their whole life , never read the Koran, suddenly can overnight commit a mass crime in the name of religion are not religious to me. In fact those who blame religion on such acts are not very honest.
Perhaps you can read my long post at: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:21 am
I show in clear detail how religion and specifically literal holy texts can be clearly connected to a huge range of negative events.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:29 am

DONALD TRUMP wrote:
I show in clear detail how religion and specifically literal holy texts can be clearly connected to a huge range of negative events.
I know the argument, I heard it a million times. I just think it has nothing to do with religion.

I will try one more time.

Science says all disks should respond to the following equation: D= (x-a)^2+(y-b)^2 < R^2\}. Anything that is not responding to that equation is not a disk...correct?
So now try to build a disk ....you simply cannot. You can only get something close to be called a disk but no disks were ever made on earth! Same for a  square or any shape. Does it mean we should not make or try to? We accommodate ourselves with things that fit more or less this equation (DVDs, wheels, etc...) cause on earth we have to compromise.

Religion is no different. We are given some rules or a path to spirituality by prophets, revelations or even our own dreams then men understand them the way they want and compromise to it. I believe that without those it woudl be chaos. Like science without formulas to guide us.

We may not like that a circle needs to be perfect to be a circle.....but that's its definition. The "god" of circles doesn't care, nor has an opinion on it. A circle has to be so. Thankfully the "evil" of circles allows for a compromise. In fact the evil of circles is fighting very hard to make sure we don't make perfect circles. However we have to find a compromise between the 2.

That's the scientific approach to religion in a nutshell.


Last edited by Tenez on Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:24 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Pray For France

Post by noleisthebest on Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:02 am

Tenez wrote:
I will try one more time.
Science says all disks should respond to the following equation: D= (x-a)^2+(y-b)^2 < R^2\}. Anything that is not responding to that equation is not a disk...correct?
So now try to build a disk ....you simply cannot. You can only get something close to be called a disk but no disks were ever made on earth! Same for a  square or any shape. Does it mean we should not make or try to? We accommodate ourselves with things that fit more or less this equation (DVDs, wheels, etc...) cause on earth we have to compromise.
Religion is no different. We are given some rules or a path to spirituality by prophets, revelations or even our own dreams then men understand them the way they want and compromise to it. I believe that without those it woudl be chaos. Like science without formulas to guide us.
We may not like that a circle needs to be perfect to be a circle.....but that's its definition. The "god" of circles doesn't care, nor has an opinion on it. A circle has to be so. Thankfully the "evil" of circles allows for a compromise. In fact the evil of circles is fighting very hard to make sure we don't make perfect circles. However we are top find a compromise between the 2.
That's the scientific approach to religion in a nutshell.

That really is a fantastic illustration, T!

Especially in spiritual context. The futile efforts of men to achieve perfection and all the excuses for not being able to do so.
And then blaming the circle for it!

Pride is an awful desease of soul.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:21 am

Thanks NITB! I read Plato's Socrates 35 years ago...and I put it at my own sauce above. Winking

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Re: Pray For France

Post by noleisthebest on Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:46 am

Tenez wrote:Thanks NITB! I read Plato's Socrates 35 years ago...and I put it at my own sauce above. Winking
Don't change the recipe! chef

I liked them, too.
There was a seed of poetry in their hearts and they were genuinelly searching for truth.

But as soon as one got close to it - the majority (powers) felt threatened.

Truth costs.

I have always been fascinated with the circle.

Its perfect laws, shape, freedom, beauty, concept of infinity.
That's why Pi is my favourite number Winking



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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:17 pm

Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:55 pm

FedererKing wrote:Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

Ah! At last! It took you so many days and posts to finally come to sense! So whatever Science or Religions say ..."a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." That's why men fight between themselves....even of the same faith!

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:10 am

I am sure you know I am talking about you and NITB in that quote.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:14 am

Right! So the UK is now going to bomb Syria.

Whatever you were told by the political intelligencia....the fact of the matter is that it is going to make things worse and increase terrorism...here as well.

I am even more certain of that than Federer's decline in 2015!

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Re: Pray For France

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:45 am

I don't even know what political inteligncia are saying...this time!

Who/what is the new Boogeyman?

I gather that Americans are going to have new presidential election soon, too...heard people talk about Hilary Clinton and Donald Young at a Christmas lunch yesterday...

It all sounds a bit stale, and feels like lull before the storm.

The world has changed so much in the last 50 years...




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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:45 am

Let's not forget that just over a year ago they voted whether to bomb Assad and help the rebels or not. So clearly in view of today's vote that would have been a huge mistake....yet again.

But hey they make sure they never learn any lesson of the past. As long as they bomb they are happy...doesn't matter what they bomb!

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Re: Pray For France

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:32 am

Tenez wrote:Let's not forget that just over a year ago they voted whether to bomb Assad and help the rebels or not. So clearly in view of today's vote that would have been a huge mistake....yet again.

But hey they make sure they never learn any lesson of the pastAs long as they bomb they are happy...doesn't matter what they bomb!

Well, what lessons do they need to learn? They are doing fine...
So long as their ship is afloat - nothing else matters.


Especially when you see how blindly people still believe everything TV tells them.
It's so good to always have someone to blame...

The world is swimming in blood.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:13 pm

The fact it gets dark at 4, three-four monts of miserable weather ahead of us,  no tennis to watch,  doesn't help the overall gloominess., does it?..

And while  we wait for Christmas, some live in dread for their lives losing nearest and dearest, getting maimed every day,  their homes and livelihoods pounded into dust...

The cost of our "happiness".

I just want to disappear into some jungle!

How do people's consciences cope?
At what point do they cross the moment of eternal numbness?

Silly me...I forgot about statistics! Doh

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:12 pm

noleisthebest wrote:The fact it gets dark at 4, three-four monts of miserable weather ahead of us,  no tennis to watch,  doesn't help the overall gloominess., does it?..

And while  we wait for Christmas, some live in dread for their lives losing nearest and dearest, getting maimed every day,  their homes and livelihoods pounded into dust...

The cost of our "happiness".

I just want to disappear into some jungle!

How do people's consciences cope?
At what point do they cross the moment of eternal numbness?

Silly me...I forgot about statistics! Doh

Winking

I m not so gloomy. I have learnt to like autumn and winter. And I believe it's all for the best.

Tenez

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:32 pm

Until the West outlaws Islam, nothing will get any better.  Only worse.  Our ancestors knew about Islam well and avoided it like the plague. Even Churchill warned against it, and he was PM not long back.  But now we have apologists and appeasers and left wing fools in charge - so not only do we not avoid Muslims, we actively welcome them - even when they have returned from Syria fighting for IS.

It's not going to end well for the West or Islam or Leftists.  Personally, I'd like to see Cameron, Corbyn and any other person who actively creates this mayhem strung up and choked to death.  After we have finally woken up, there will be a day of reckoning - but Cameron and co will likely be long gone by then.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by luvsports! on Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:02 pm

You want to ban Islam? That is way too authoritarian. I criticize it for sure but that is too far. For the peaceful ones that practice their religion w/o doing anything wrong, you would ban it?

Churchill did a lot of bad stuff too btw.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:35 pm

luvsports! wrote:You want to ban Islam? That is way too authoritarian. I criticize it for sure but that is too far. For the peaceful ones that practice their religion w/o doing anything wrong, you would ban it?

Churchill did a lot of bad stuff too btw.

There isn't such thing as a "peaceful one".  That's the problem. They are all potential killers - made so by their demented beliefs. A large % support Sharia, and it only takes a minority to cause carnage. Islam as an ideology is against freedom and democracy (it demands Sharia Law - which is contrary to our laws of decency) and pretty much needs outlawing.  Anything less than that just means more radical Muslims blowing stuff up and forming deadly groups again in the future.  It isn't authoritarian to outlaw something that is clearly against freedom, totalitarian, and nazi-like.  Nazism is banned in Germany for a good reason (we could easily say that most Nazis never participated in atrocities or believed in them, but where does that get us???) - and this religion needs to join it.  Apart from the fact that religion is man-made garbage, this religion is dangerous and is causing death and misery all over the world and has done since its inception. 

And one day it will be outlawed, but far too late to prevent mass death.  Because that's all Muhammad understood.

At the very least, ALL of these awful sayings by Muhammad need to be removed.  But Muslims won't allow that.  We should never have allowed Muslims to settle here (for poor reasons too - big business making a fortune with cheap labour)
.  Everywhere that Islam goes it breeds only severe hardship.

Recently, another dozen or so dead in California.

Japan and a lot of other countries don't generally have these issues... because they weren't stupid enough to import a large % of religious fruitcakes who depend on welfare their entire lives.

You say outlawing this vile menace is "too authoritarian"  - can you point me to a country that has a majority of Muslims which also practises the same freedoms that we do (esp to women and non Muslims)?  If we don't start doing something to curtail this ideology, it will one day be the main ideology of Europe. I don't want that.  And whinging about the "peaceful" Muslims isn't going to change the fact they will do nothing when it comes to Sharia being implemented.  Look around the world at where Islam is dominant.  What do you propose we do instead?

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:54 pm

FK is right! Right about religion, right about tennis, and has has this natural authority to think what is right and what is wrong and anyone who thinks differently is wrong.

His mind is so clear! I wonder in fact whether he knows what doubting means? Everything is so clear cut for him.

Beati pauperes spiritu!


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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:40 pm

Leave the discussion to the grown-ups, please.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by luvsports! on Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:49 pm

FedererKing wrote:
luvsports! wrote:You want to ban Islam? That is way too authoritarian. I criticize it for sure but that is too far. For the peaceful ones that practice their religion w/o doing anything wrong, you would ban it?

Churchill did a lot of bad stuff too btw.

There isn't such thing as a "peaceful one".  That's the problem. They are all potential killers - made so by their demented beliefs. A large % support Sharia, and it only takes a minority to cause carnage. Islam as an ideology is against freedom and democracy (it demands Sharia Law - which is contrary to our laws of decency) and pretty much needs outlawing.  Anything less than that just means more radical Muslims blowing stuff up and forming deadly groups again in the future.  It isn't authoritarian to outlaw something that is clearly against freedom, totalitarian, and nazi-like.  Nazism is banned in Germany for a good reason (we could easily say that most Nazis never participated in atrocities or believed in them, but where does that get us???) - and this religion needs to join it.  Apart from the fact that religion is man-made garbage, this religion is dangerous and is causing death and misery all over the world and has done since its inception. 

And one day it will be outlawed, but far too late to prevent mass death.  Because that's all Muhammad understood.

At the very least, ALL of these awful sayings by Muhammad need to be removed.  But Muslims won't allow that.  We should never have allowed Muslims to settle here (for poor reasons too - big business making a fortune with cheap labour)
.  Everywhere that Islam goes it breeds only severe hardship.

Recently, another dozen or so dead in California.

Japan and a lot of other countries don't generally have these issues... because they weren't stupid enough to import a large % of religious fruitcakes who depend on welfare their entire lives.

You say outlawing this vile menace is "too authoritarian"  - can you point me to a country that has a majority of Muslims which also practises the same freedoms that we do (esp to women and non Muslims)?  If we don't start doing something to curtail this ideology, it will one day be the main ideology of Europe. I don't want that.  And whinging about the "peaceful" Muslims isn't going to change the fact they will do nothing when it comes to Sharia being implemented.  Look around the world at where Islam is dominant.  What do you propose we do instead?

Freedom of speech is everything. What you are suggesting is far too Orwellian. I am not going to impose my beliefs on others. Proselytizing isn't my thing.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by luvsports! on Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:52 pm

I assume you don't have any Muslim friends?

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Re: Pray For France

Post by DECIMA on Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:23 pm

Banning a religion is the sort of illiberal thing which we should be fighting against.
People should have the freedom to think what they want and the freedom to say what they want as long as it isn't breaking laws on incitement and violence.

So banning islam is an absolute no, kicking out Muslims is preposterous; however we do have to admit there is a real issue with a sect within Islam: so we should be cracking down on mosques radicalised with Saudi Arabian funding, have more regulation of faith schools and all schools at risk, and have closer monitoring of those associated with radical groups.
Oh and also, stop bombing middle eastern countries. War in Syria is a total mistake, I don't agree with Labour left on many things, but they're right here. I actually think ISIS needs ground troops against them to wipe them out... but it shouldn't be Western ground troops.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Sat Dec 05, 2015 3:18 pm

luvsports! wrote:I assume you don't have any Muslim friends?

Yes, I do.  One very good friend who is a Somalian Muslim.  We get on extremely well, apart from the odd jibe she has aimed at Israel (which I've already told her is a symptom of what her religion can do).  Oddly, she is VERY open minded to criticism, but admits her brother would likely assault me for my views - and also admits that "Islam and Western style freedom can't work together".  So she even agrees with me that Islam and Western ideals are an explosive mix in the long run. She was my work buddy for a year, and we meet up regularly at a local cafe.

Being against religion is not the same as being against a person.  But even she shows signs of what Islam can do to a person - brought up in a Muslim household, she's been taught to hate Israel and Jews.  As I said, she's one of the nicest and most westernized Muslims I've ever met - and STILL that religion has left a mark on her.  It's no good. Islam is a disaster.  All religions are bad, but this one is a complete nightmare. 

I asked you what you would do instead.  If you aren't prepared to tackle this religion and want to just go on as we are - what do you suggest we do instead?  Sitting around and doing nothing will almost certainly lead to Sharia Law at some point in the future - not forgetting severe problems such as mass child grooming (we have already had that / are having that). I don't care how many Muslims are offended by what I say, if you are tolerant to an evil ideology (Remember, I am not calling all Muslims evil), then you are going to lose your freedom and cost a lot of people their lives in the long run.

My way eventually creates a bigger peace at a lower cost.  Yours creates a Sharia Law dominated country.

[edit. Months later, I notice that there was no answer to what you'd do instead.]


Last edited by FedererKing on Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:27 pm; edited 4 times in total

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Sat Dec 05, 2015 3:22 pm

When we fought Nazism, we fought an idea.  An ideology.  Islam is no different. The belief it should be afforded a "right" to exist, simply because it has a sky fairy IS preposterous. If an idea is dangerous to humanity and preaches the level of hatred and death that Islam does - then it needs banning (in this case, amending the ton of passages in the Koran, Sura, and Hadith simply won't happen).  Free speech ends when you tolerate a fascist cult.  And it's time you all woke up to that reality quick.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by noleisthebest on Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:34 pm

FedererKing wrote:When we fought Nazism, we fought an idea.  An ideology.  Islam is no different. The belief it should be afforded a "right" to exist, simply because it has a sky fairy IS preposterous. If an idea is dangerous to humanity and preaches the level of hatred and death that Islam does - then it needs banning (in this case, amending the ton of passages in the Koran, Sura, and Hadith simply won't happen).  Free speech ends when you tolerate a fascist cult.  And it's time you all woke up to that reality quick.

Not really.
Britain tried to get in bed with Hitler to start with.
Then had no choice but to defend.
Nothing to do with any idea - which is just a brainwashing concept, anyway.
People have always fought for greed and power.

Now probably more than ever.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:12 pm

Not everyone did.  A lot of people were warning about Hitler for years, but most tried appeasement. In the end, we had to fight him and his ideology.  And after the war, it was universally taught that it is evil and dangerous.

We're making the same mistake with Islam now.  Trying to appease it instead of teaching that it is evil and dangerous.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:19 pm

FedererKing wrote:Not everyone did.  A lot of people were warning about Hitler for years, but most tried appeasement. In the end, we had to fight him and his ideology.  And after the war, it was universally taught that it is evil and dangerous.

We're making the same mistake with Islam now.  Trying to appease it instead of teaching that it is evil and dangerous.

How exactly would you "teach" that, esp in British towns that are predominantly muslm now?
We are probably having third generation being born in uk.

And don't forget, they did not come here uninvited, on the contrary.

You can't brush millions of people under the carpet.

To most, islam is their comfort blanket as they never really felt properly welcomed, always 2nd rate citizens.
They came here with their ways and customs 60 years ago and were allowed to practise them. Mosques sprang up everywhere.

And then suddenly we have this a big problem.

Majority here are quiet, ordinary family people who now need to take side, and I don't think it would have been their choice to be in this situation.

They see themselves as a race, they call each other "brothers". They don't "integrate".

I actually believe 9/11 was staged.

They were being rattled for years before that.

I used to live in a street with many Pakistanis, and most of them walked down it on their way to mosque.

I ripped off posters they'd wire onto lamp-posts that advertised talks against western society, capitalism etc, that was around 2000, 2001...well before 9/11 when most here were ignorant on what went on.

They call(ed) "us" - white trash. They still charge me at least 30% more than their own people for taxi rides.

They live in a parallel, tax-avoiding system and buy houses for hard cash they borrow from their own lenders.


I thought it to be ultimately hypocritical of their leaders to despize capitalism and yet drive themsleves to mosque in big white merzedes cars.

So, it's a complex problem.

And not very spiritual at all.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:22 pm

You make a start by allowing a debate on national television between imam's and people like Robert Spencer.  You give these people even 1 inch of rope and they hang themselves.  By putting the information and debate out there - the truth is out and things work much better around truth than they do with what we're currently trying, namely deceit and propaganda.

You allow their holy texts to be debated by people for and against Islam on television and radio.  You don't stifle debate.  And you also allow those critical of Saudi, for example, to have an hour explaining their view - not shot down on propaganda pieces like Question Time.

Just look at what a tit this Imam makes of himself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfyXUszMyOk

That's despite the Leftist presenter trying to portray Spencer as a racist.

This is what I wrote there:


This deluded interviewer has no idea what Islam is, or what it stands for.  It is a lying and manipulative fascist ideology that becomes a nightmare of a problem the second it has enough followers to change your laws. Has anyone else noticed how they keep parroting "There are extremists in all groups", like Christians are beheading people daily, like Muslims do.. or that it's Christians, Hindus and the like, who are blowing up towers and marathons?  This is the issue here... People like this DUMB **** interviewer can't understand that ISLAM IS NOT LIKE OTHER RELIGIONS.  IT IS A SEPARATE IDEOLOGY.  Imagine if Nazism became a religion (quite easy if you add a god into the ideology)... Would we all then have to respect it because of religious freedom laws?  According to this **** wit... yes, we would. Tolerating a crazy cult isn't a good thing, or a right thing.  It's a sure way to cause misery and death to innocent people who don't believe in fake sky men. Sooner or later we'll have to confront this nasty little death cult, but instead of confronting it when we have the numbers to easily defeat it, we'll instead have to do it the hard way (like we had to with Hitler, because of APPEASING, STUPID, DOG-****-DUMB, SELF HATING LIBERALS).

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:02 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35037553

Also, democracy is dead in this country.  Trump says he wants to ban Muslims from entering the country because it's unsafe to just let them all swan in - in light of Paris. And he's rounded on... and the UK decides whether or not to BAR HIM.  To stop him coming because his views are oh so dangerous?  Nonsense.  They did the same to Robert Spencer and Geert Wilders. 

This country bans anyone who criticizes Islam but is quite happy to allow mad Imams to talk.

And it's this kind of crap that leads to Le Pen taking control of France - and I am GLAD.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:12 pm

Hi FK,

you and I seem to be the only ones here who don't have a life...


Everyone else is either on some exotic holiday or faking they don't care about tennis any more...


Tenez is probably trying to prove to himself he is not an OTF addict Laugh


LS...is too busy chasing umpires for interviews, others are too sexy for the forum and turn up only for slam finals....ah well...I may as well fake I'm going on a holiday...to my bed to hybernate for the next 4 weeks...


Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year everyone!!! Giftcrackersantaxmaspud

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