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Pray For France

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Pray For France

Post by noleisthebest on Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:41 am

Just woke up only to read about the horrible events in Paris.

Sickening.

My heart cries for France and people there.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:38 am

Horrible. As if this was not predictable!

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Re: Pray For France

Post by noleisthebest on Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:08 am

France will never be the same after this....
I hope it wakes people up.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by noleisthebest on Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:17 am

Is there a politician that can extract France from this mess?
(and the mess that lead to it?)

Or is it too late.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by luvsports! on Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:14 pm

Is this all the fault of the West's foreign policy?

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:41 pm

luvsports! wrote:Is this all the fault of the West's foreign policy?

Well they did not help surely.

Those terrorists did not attack Malta, did they? We were saved from those when France was still independent and not part of NATO (up to Chirac).

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Re: Pray For France

Post by luvsports! on Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:07 pm

And Lebanon? 

And the Yazidis?

And homosexuals? 

Islamism, Jihad, wahhabism and salafism. Don't take them likely. 

Religion is to blame and so is imperialism. Both.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by noleisthebest on Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:34 pm

luvsports! wrote:And Lebanon? 

And the Yazidis?

And homosexuals? 

Islamism, Jihad, wahhabism and salafism. Don't take them likely. 

Religion is to blame and so is imperialism. Both.

I am afraid it's just the old fashioned cash...
If you want to talk religion, history runs its course slowly.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by luvsports! on Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:13 am

Not answering my post.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:33 am

Tbh LS, right now I am too gutted and distressed to talk about it.
I am not even angry as this did not come as a surprise.

I know why and that's more than enough.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:55 am

Do you know what's weird?
Last night I took a book from my shelf. I really don't read much these days except poetry.

I bought the book before I went on my first summer holiday in France.
Just something to kill time on the beach with. It was not the best written book, so I only read a few pages at the time.

I have no idea why and how I saw it again after three years last night.

And as I as too tired, I never got to open it. It's still here in front of me, where I left it, in the coffee table.
Not meant to be as an answer to anything it seems.

Btw, the book is called "The Secret Life of France" by Lucy Wadman.

I don't think I'll bother with it any more...

I fell in love with France and its sleepy charm straight away anyway.

So what now...the confused, poor people found naked before life and death last night?

The everyday man.

The little man...

The secret life of France is gone.

The big wheel of time keeps rolling.

What can we do? Try not to get rolled over alive.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:45 am

luvsports! wrote:And Lebanon? 

And the Yazidis?

And homosexuals? 

Islamism, Jihad, wahhabism and salafism. Don't take them likely. 

Religion is to blame and so is imperialism. Both.

Ah...because you think those who manipulate those fools who blow themselves in the heart of Paris are religious?Real Muslims have been living mostly in peace roughly since the crusades while the west kept starting wars at every occasion including the first 2 most atrocious WWs. It is only when the west started to have a serious interest in the middle east with the creation of Israel and energy resources that it kept bombing the hell out of those countries, spreading chaos at every corner and as a result we alienated of course some of them...

It certainly takes 2 to tango...but it's pretty clear we (the west) have been looking for a dancing partner for decades....we have now found it!

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Re: Pray For France

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:27 am

I find Purin-led Russians quite an interesting political player atm.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by luvsports! on Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:44 pm

If you think that sharia law, wahhabism, salafism and jihad is all from the "west", then you haven't seen the blood splattered texts that all religions possess in its sacred documents.

If you think that then I am sorry but you are misguided.
It isn't black and white. It's grey. Both.
You have to criticise bad tenets of rligion if they are taken literally. 

How great are the Saudi's huh? They are the west's allies. Wonderful country they are. Beheading more than IS.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:55 pm

I really don't think we are dealing with spiritual warfare here, LS. It's blind leading the blind.
In the big picture, both sides in this conflict work for the same master.

If you really want to look at the root of the matter go back to Abraham and his first son.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:04 pm

luvsports! wrote:....

How great are the Saudi's huh? They are the west's allies. Wonderful country they are. Beheading more than IS.
You are clearly supporting my point here. In fact one day you will realise that the so called Saudi's have no power at all. They just are muppets controlled 100% by "us".

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Re: Pray For France

Post by luvsports! on Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:08 am

You are clearly not seeing the bit about THEY BEHEAD MORE PEOPLE THAN ISIS.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:35 am

luvsports! wrote:You are clearly not seeing the bit about THEY BEHEAD MORE PEOPLE THAN ISIS.

Or you clearly do not want to see who has got rid of all non religious regime in the middle east in the name of "democracy", yet supports the most religious, least democratic extremist Wahhabi tribe in the Middle East.....which role is to convey the worst image of Islam.

It's like saying Bush and his mates are "new born christians" and therefore Christians are responsible for the million (and growing) deaths in Irak. Doesn't make sense to me. The family tribe who behead more than ISIS is eating in the hands of those in washington, One day you may also find out who ISIS is supported by.

You are clearly mixing what men can do for power and economical reasons with what religion is really about. At the end of the day it's a human question.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by luvsports! on Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:15 pm

Did I not say both imperialism and religion?

I can amplify that with a Chomsky throat clearing if you like? Colonialists and Imperialists have a humongous part to play but to discount any religious impact is obtuse. 

You are misconstruing my point of Islamism, not Islam. Read up on Maajid Nawaz on that issue.

If you see no fault at all from a religious side then we have reached an impasse. 

What is so different about Mohammed than what Isis are doing? Tell me that.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:44 pm

Religions can have a bad impact but Religions are implemented by men and men are making it what it is.

The worst "religion" is the one of the Golden Calf, which is the one ruling the Western world.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:17 pm


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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:27 am

Since religion (specifically Islam) is the reason why these deaths happened in the first place, praying is the last thing that is needed.  And until we reject Leftist Socialism and all the crap it brings, this will continue.

It's time a lot of you wised up and realized Islam has been fighting a battle against non Muslims since 600AD, when its founder forged an army and went on the rampage.

The reason other religions evolved and are largely benign is because their holy texts are nowhere near as literal as the Koran, and their main prophets (like Jesus) did not actually kill anyone and then instruct others to kill.  This is the main reason why Islam will never ever be peaceful.  It's like trying to make Nazism pacifist.

And it's amazing that so many people have no idea that Muhammad was actually a war lord.  How do you tell a devout Muslim not to emulate his idol?

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:42 am

So Bush, the so called "new born Christian" generating over a million death in Irak is not as bad as Islam according to you?

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:06 am

Tenez wrote:So Bush, the so called "new born Christian" generating over a million death in Irak is not as bad as Islam according to you?

Bush didn't go around beheading people, and he didn't attack innocent civilians deliberately.  He did not act alone (he was democratically voted for and so were all the government).  He also didn't shout "Jesus is great". He was also retaliating against a vile atrocity committed by Islam.  In other words, Bush was not acting based on the bible or the Gospels. Some of what he did was totally misguided, but it was not in any way decided by his religion or by a desire to kill innocent people or non-Christians.  The fact he is a Christian is totally irrelevant.

These killers ARE acting based on the Koran.  And do you have ANY clue how many people are dying every day in Islamic countries, and how long Islam has been killing people?  Are you really that foolish to try and compare Western democracy with Sharia Law and Islam?

What you don't see is Christians strapping bombs to themselves all over the world and blowing themselves up because the other person isn't a Christian.  Only Muslims do that, and no amount of your apologizing for Islam is going to change it or excuse it.  Sorry.

Also, the "million" figure is not verified and, even if it were, the VAST MAJORITY WERE KILLED BY MUSLIMS IN ALL THE BOMBINGS AND SUICIDE ATTACKS in the aftermath of the invasion (and they are still at it).  You make it sound like Bush and the army go around house to house slaughtering women and children.  This isn't reality.

It takes a very "special" person to blame the West when a Muslim straps a bomb to himself and blows innocent people away in a crowded market place.  Quoting a million dead as the fault of America is a disgusting distortion of reality.

They were killing each other before we went in. The only thing that stopped them falling apart entirely was the cruel leadership of Saddam.


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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:18 am

I can basically sum you up, Tenez, in one word:  Apologist.  Although I'd also like to add Conspiracist and  Appeaser.  You are in deep denial - and people like you, sadly, contributed to Paris. You have blood on your hands - and I've told that to a number of people this week.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:29 am

Ah so killing 1 million innocent people with bombs is better than beheading a few.....Strange logic once again.

I am certainly not excusing those fanatic fools who blow themselves up but we have to look at what started it....I am 50yo and for the first 35 years of my life I can't remember Muslim terrorism here in Europe.....It would be foolish to ignore the chaos we spread in the middle east the last 15 years with the resurgence of terrorism which started 15 years ago.

One cannot spread terror without creating terrorism.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:31 am

You aren't reading what I write. Also, 50 years ago there were hardly any Muslims here.  We imported them en mass around that time and never stopped.  Perhaps their rising population is part of the problem... HMMM?


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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:32 am

Apologist? Unlike you I don;t excuse either side.  It's unfortunately ignorant people who voted for Bush or Blair and their successors  who got us into that mess.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:34 am

To be precise, had one voted against Bush or Blair, their opponent woudl have applied the same "strategy".....it's decided above them anyway.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:38 am

Once again, Islam has been murdering people since 600AD.  Bush and Blair weren't around then.  They also aren't to blame for the barbaric nature of Saudi Arabia and numerous other Muslim countries. 

You are absolutely an apologist.  Look at your posts and note to me where you are blaming Muslims for blowing people up?  You aren't.  You are blaming Bush and Blair for everything - and totally ignoring the wider issue with Islam.  You are actually making excuses for murderers and blaming the West.  It's insane how you can go on and on about the West and totally ignore that in Saudi, homosexuals are executed.  Maybe get your priorities straight?

Nobody I know thinks that the West is perfect, but we're a damn site better than most Muslim countries.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:45 am

FedererKing wrote:Once again, Islam has been murdering people since 600AD.  Bush and Blair weren't around then.  They also aren't to blame for the barbaric nature of Saudi Arabia and numerous other Muslim countries. 
And Christianity has killed many more since 32 AD....and keep killing at a higher rate....so where do we go from now?

Wahhabism is an interpretation of Islam....it's not Islam, no more than Bush's neo Christian has anything to Jesus.

You are absolutely an apologist.  Look at your posts and note to me where you are blaming Muslims for blowing people up?  You aren't.  You are blaming Bush and Blair for everything - and totally ignoring the wider issue with Islam.  You are actually making excuses for murderers and blaming the West.  It's insane how you can go on and on about the West and totally ignore that in Saudi, homosexuals are executed.  Maybe get your priorities straight?
One thing for sure, you are closer to those extreme fools than I am.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:55 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAKbQJ_HPVI


This may help you.

And maybe go and watch more of Robert Spencer.  Knock that nonsense out of your skull.  I am not talking about 23 AD (Christianity wasn't even formed then, so shows what you know).  Islam has caused massive death compared to any other religion AND STILL IS DOING.


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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:06 am

Ah..Fox news! Say no more. Laugh

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:06 am

Tenez wrote:Ah..Fox news! Say no more. Laugh

That is massively predictable.  I did not search for Fox, I searched for "Robert Spencer".  Go and do the same.  It doesn't matter what news channel he is on.  The message and his intellect are the same.  Your response above is heard so often and never gets any more adult.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:09 am

It's always the same response from people living in denial— "FOX!" "DAILY MAIL!"  as if that somehow wins an argument or invalidates what its writers or guests are saying, or the sources it is referencing.  Please grow up and debate the issue.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:22 am

I have not read your last 2 posts and won't intend to. Your are in denial in tennis so I am not sure that with your high emotions running on that subject we will get anywhere.

My 20yo son lives in the heart of Paris and I have no interest in supporting those idiots from both sides, cause as usual, the victims here like in the middle east are the innocent, balanced people.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:26 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEz4mR6wNF8

let's try this one.  Or perhaps you think Youtube is an American plot.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:32 am

I am certainly not excusing those fanatic fools who blow themselves up but we have to look at what started it..


That's also from one of your posts above.  It's hilarious that you don't realize you are contradicting yourself in the same sentence.  I remember being told that everything before "but" is usually irrelevant to what comes after it. So it would seem.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by DECIMA on Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:59 am

Tenez; you just always seem to see everything from one side. 
Somehow it's always the West's fault; whatever the atrocity, Bush and Blair are to blame. 

Firstly, you talked about Islam's 'peaceful history.'
You need to learn your history. Do you know how Islam spread. Search up the friendly conversions. No religion, including Christianity, has had a peaceful history. In fact through the millennium, Christianity has been the cause of most violence. However it hasnt been recently. 

I have a lot of sympathy with those angry with Bush and Blair for their interventions. Tenez you are clearly right in saying that the western interventions have made things worse; as they've removed Western dictators without sufficient thought of he consequences and aftermath. 
The western leaders are delusional to what they think will happen when they spread democracy. Iraq won't turn into Norway. Vast majority of the population in Middle East believe in no rights for gays or women, death for apostates- as is stated in the holy books. 
Interventions by the west toppling secular dictators are generally replaced by something even worse. 

So the blame is partly due to poor interventions (forget Iraq... Libya recently has been even more disastrous), but the underlying reason why these interventions will never work and terrorism is rife is religion.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by DECIMA on Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:04 am

FedererKing; I do agree with a lot of what you're saying, BUT please do keep in mind that in the UK the vast majority of Muslims do Not support ISIS at all; I do feel sad when European Muslims who are tolerant and peaceful are discriminated against because of the actions of the minority fringe.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:12 am

DONALD TRUMP wrote:FedererKing; I do agree with a lot of what you're saying, BUT please do keep in mind that in the UK the vast majority of Muslims do Not support ISIS at all; I do feel sad when European Muslims who are tolerant and peaceful are discriminated against because of the actions of the minority fringe.
Wrong.
Every muslim worth his salt feels justice is done with all these terrorist attacks.
Of course, they are not going to say it here as they are a minority.

Serbs had 500 years of muslim Turkish rule. We know a thing or two about them.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:23 am

I think you should read this...  And even if an absolute majority did believe in democracy, it didn't take much for the Nazis to gain control of Germany and destroy 50 million lives in WW2.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm

Nole is absolutely right that an awful lot of Muslims agree with Isis, and many of them have gone over there fighting with them.  Look at those opinion polls above for a flavour of just how many are as crazy.  It's scary what we are doing allowing that religion to flourish.

If we hadn't allowed Muslim immigrants, NONE of this would be happening.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:29 am

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity.


The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property—either as a child, a wife, or a concubine—must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die. But the influence of the religion paralyzes the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science—the science against which it had vainly struggled—the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.

- Winston Churchill 1899.


Do you think he would have allowed it?

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:37 am

DONALD TRUMP wrote:
I have a lot of sympathy with those angry with Bush and Blair for their interventions. Tenez you are clearly right in saying that the western interventions have made things worse; as they've removed Western dictators without sufficient thought of he consequences and aftermath. 

Do you really think they want (ed) to spread democracy?  I find this credulous! They knew they were going to spread chaos and that's what they did, and that is what they want to keep doing.  Their successors are still bent on removing Assad after having spread further chaos by removing Khaddafi. They will never learn will they?

Life has gone from bad to worse for all those living in the middle east and you still think they have not "thought (and obviously still don't) plan ahead? That's a real joke to me. The aim is to spread chaos and terror and that is very clear. One has to be an idiot to think that removing Assad is going to make the world for syrians better.

Unfortunately those fools blowing themselves up in Paris are part of the western's strategy. It gives them more reasons to launch further bombs in the middle east and campaign for that war on terror which is only going in one direction: it's getting worse. The aim is to polarise us all.

That's all I am saying. I don't want to take side with either. I like to think I am a free thinker and I perfectly know that the average Muslim and Christian just want their lives to get on like they were 15 years ago.


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Re: Pray For France

Post by DECIMA on Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:00 pm

Federer King; NITB- I'm sorry but I see no evidence that the majority of muslims support ISIS.
One thing to keep in mind is that the biggest victims of ISIS and Taliban terrorism is innocent Muslims... the attacks in their own countries are much more frequent and prevelant than attacks on the west (although perhaps under reported). I think it's a real minority of Muslims who are supporting of violent radical jihadism. Also I think the percentage figure for Muslims in the UK who support ISIS will probably be signficantly less than the overall percentage figure for Muslims worldwide.  

However what is true, is that due to religious infleunces; a much higher percentage (maybe around 3/4) of Muslims across the world would have views that we consider illiberal on women, gays, atheism, and apostasy. This is because of the content in the Koran, which is illiberal on these issues, and many people take it literally.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by DECIMA on Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:06 pm

Tenez wrote:
Life has gone from bad to worse for all those living in the middle east and you still think they have not "thought (and obviously still don't) plan ahead? That's a real joke to me. The aim is to spread chaos and terror and that is very clear. One has to be an idiot to think that removing Assad is going to make the world for syrians better.

Unfortunately those fools blowing themselves up in Paris are part of the western's strategy. It gives them more reasons to launch further bombs in the middle east and campaign for that war on terror which is only going in one direction: it's getting worse. The aim is to polarise us all.
You have no idea what you are talking about. You view things so simplistically, like a cartoon where the West are bad and evil like Voldemort in everything they do.
Assad himself is not a good guy, he was a dictator who used chemical weapons against his own citizens; the issue I have with these western interventions is that the Western governments are too incompetent to successfully manage these torn countries; even if Assad does fall, another even more repressive regime will eventually take control.
At most, they wanted to remove a leader and replace it with a government in Syria who had more sympathy with the west, and wanted to trade more with the west than they did with Russia. They did not want to cause terror and chaos for no reason. They definitely do not want their own capital cities to be bombed by terrorists and innocent citizens of their own country to die.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:34 pm

I never said a majority do - I noted a massive amount do. And they do.  There are numerous polls. It didn't take nearly as many Nazis to seize power.  You have to learn from history. Islam always leads to death.  Every time.  Especially when they make up around 20% of the population and begin demanding Sharia Law publicly.

Also, no intervention ina  Muslim country will lead to peace - unless you are going there with a huge long term plan of banning Islam.  Otherwise, just don't bother.  I said for years that Iraq and Afghan would end up back to square one as soon as troops left - because the problem there was that useless religion and always will be!

Germany was bombed into ground in 1945 and within a decade or two was a thriving economic powerhouse.  You could give those Koran thumpers a million years and they'd still be wearing sandles praying to the invisible man.  I feel so sorry for the women and minorities in Muslim countries - and nothing but loathing for those that appease it or make excuses for it.

The West has been ignorant and willfully turned a blind eye to Islam until they reaped the whirlwind.  Until 9/11 no-one even gave a shit about this medieval cult.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Tenez on Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:01 am

From the horse's mouth

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/25/tony-blair-is-right-without-the-iraq-war-there-would-be-no-isis

And I don;t read the Guardian, nor the times or any other mainstream papers.

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Re: Pray For France

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:32 am

Tenez wrote:From the horse's mouth

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/25/tony-blair-is-right-without-the-iraq-war-there-would-be-no-isis

And I don;t read the Guardian, nor the times or any other mainstream papers.
....and David Kelly would have been alive.
It doesn't leave much hope for us ordinary mortals, does it?

Disposable tax-paying consumers...that's all we are.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-488667/Why-I-know-weapons-expert-Dr-David-Kelly-murdered-MP-spent-year-investigating-death.html

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Re: Pray For France

Post by Daniel on Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:50 am

Yes, Iraq was a beacon of freedom and democracy before we went there. No gassing of Kurds or anything else.

Islam has been a problem since it was formed and will continue to be until you stop appeasing it.  And, by the way, going into Iraq as an occupation force WAS a mistake - but not for the reasons you think, Tenez.  The reason it was a mistake is that idealists like Blair actually believed they could create a democratic society there (which helps the oil flow).  They failed to factor in Islam.

And they are still failing to.  Already they are all going on about bombing Isis as if another MUSLIM group won't just pop up to replace them.

Also, the real problem in the Middle East is Saudi.  It funds all the crazy mosques in Europe and has a huge hand in funding terror as well (weren't the 9/11 terror attacks Saudi caused?).  But the West won't say it because they need the oil.

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