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ATP Tour Final - The Draw

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by Daniel on Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:39 pm

if Murray can bring anywhere near his best game, he'll win this.  Nadal has no bite these days.  And has lost a step to go with it.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:48 pm

Murray is not moving as well as he can.....not sure how can this escape you FK.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:07 pm

he moves a bit better now....was it stiffness?

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by Daniel on Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:14 pm

Murray playing v poorly... esp 1st serve.  Nadal swaggering around desperate to salvage something from his dreadful year, but it won't last haha.  Really hope he meets Djokovic in Semi.


Last edited by FedererKing on Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:15 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by luvsports! on Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:15 pm

6-4

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by ... on Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:24 pm

Do people still think Nole is fitter than Nadal?

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by Daniel on Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:27 pm

lmao... the commentators are crowing on about Nadal and being back.  Haha, wait til Djokovic meets him again.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:31 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Do people still think Nole is fitter than Nadal?

He is clearly fitter (best movement/stamina ratio).

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by ... on Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:33 pm

I didn't mean more energy efficient.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by luvsports! on Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:35 pm

Nitb.
How can you make that assumption from one match in a bo3?
Despite people disagreeing with me, Nadal looked more tired than Nole when they played at the FO.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:38 pm

noleisthebest wrote:I didn't mean more energy efficient.
no...that's talent...and neither have! Winking

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by ... on Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:39 pm

LS,
Who do you think uses most energy per set?

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by ... on Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:41 pm

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:I didn't mean more energy efficient.
no...that's talent...and neither have! Winking
By your logic, Nadal is superior/much more talented to Nole as he has worked out how to beat Federer.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:42 pm

luvsports! wrote:Nitb.
How can you make that assumption from one match in a bo3?
Despite people disagreeing with me, Nadal looked more tired than Nole when they played at the FO.
I don't think we can base anything on "looked tired" when those guys are concerned. They can look very tired after a rally but 35s later they can run like the first point.

I agree with you that Nadal did not seem to have the same level of energy in the earlier part of the season.....but to me it was part of his tactics to take the ball earlier, and play closer to the lines.

he knew there was no way forward with his old game.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by ... on Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:44 pm

0.45. Bang on the clock.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:44 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:I didn't mean more energy efficient.
no...that's talent...and neither have! Winking
By your logic, Nadal is superior/much more talented  to Nole as he has worked out how to beat Federer.

First I don;t think Nadal has worked out Federer....he has worked out Fed 07 for sure....but now I woudl like to see more of it.

My point is that Djoko moves his body better than Nadal nowadays thanks to being very powerful and lean. That's what I call fitter!

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:50 pm

noleisthebest wrote:0.45. Bang on the clock.

??

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by ... on Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:52 pm

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:I didn't mean more energy efficient.
no...that's talent...and neither have! Winking
By your logic, Nadal is superior/much more talented  to Nole as he has worked out how to beat Federer.

First I don;t think Nadal has worked out Federer....he has worked out Fed 07 for sure....but now I woudl like to see more of it.

My point is that Djoko moves his body better than Nadal nowadays thanks to being very powerful and lean. That's what I call fitter!

For me the fittest is the one who can afford to expand most energy per set.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by luvsports! on Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:54 pm

noleisthebest wrote:LS,
Who do you think uses most energy per set?

Nadal but as I said, I thought he looked spent vs Nole at RG. If Nadal could get close to Nole in Bo5, i certainly don't think the extra energy expended by Rafa would make him outlast Nole. I think he would come up quite  abit short.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:55 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
For me the fittest is the one who can afford to expand most energy per set.

And we don't really know who does. Swinging a big arm takes some energy, moving a whole body like one moves his arm takes more.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by ... on Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:57 pm

luvsports! wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:LS,
Who do you think uses most energy per set?

Nadal but as I said, I thought he looked spent vs Nole at RG. If Nadal could get close to Nole in Bo5, i certainly don't think the extra energy expended by Rafa would make him outlast Nole. I think he would come up quite  abit short.

That particular match would have looked very different had they met in the final, not QF.
Nole was fresh for Nadal, that made all the difference on that court with those balls.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by ... on Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:59 pm

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
For me the fittest is the one who can afford to expand most energy per set.

And we don't really know who does. Swinging a big arm takes some energy, moving a whole body like one moves his arm takes more.

The point is, Nadal is as fast as Nole. And plays 4 m behind the basline.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by luvsports! on Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:15 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
luvsports! wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:LS,
Who do you think uses most energy per set?

Nadal but as I said, I thought he looked spent vs Nole at RG. If Nadal could get close to Nole in Bo5, i certainly don't think the extra energy expended by Rafa would make him outlast Nole. I think he would come up quite  abit short.

That particular match would have looked very different had they met in the final, not QF.
Nole was fresh for Nadal, that made all the difference on that court with those balls.

So a tired Nole, is not as fit as a fresh Rafa? Yet he looked fresh as a daisy swatting him aside.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by ... on Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:19 pm

Sorry, I am not following you at all there.

What's a tired Nole have to do with fresh Nadal?
Which match are you talking about?

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by ... on Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:23 pm

I am trying to gauge how much each player has in the tank for the match.
Because, Federer and a few irrelevant players aside, that's how all matches are won today.

I'd say Nole is the most energy efficient as he is lighter than just about everyone, maybe even Simon.

Nadal definitely fitter than Murray - he drained Murray today quicker than Nole did in Paris (though I only started watching from the last game of the first set).

The three stand out above everyone else by quite a margin.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:25 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
For me the fittest is the one who can afford to expand most energy per set.

And we don't really know who does. Swinging a big arm takes some energy, moving a whole body like one moves his arm takes more.

The point is, Nadal is as fast as Nole. And plays 4 m behind the basline.
Clearly not. Djoko really is faster nowadays by some margins.

More important changes direction faster.....and that takes amazing energy.

At the end of the day I think there is little difference in top doping diet. There is limitation to how much oxygnen you blood can carry and muscle mass very quickly in tennis becomes a liability as it consumes too much energy (Murray).

The difference is how one uses that energy. Nadal is clearly more in the arms, Djoko more in the legs.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:25 pm

I think now Stan to beat  Ferrer and Murray to qualify for the semis.

Andy to drop to #3.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by ... on Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:38 pm

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
The point is, Nadal is as fast as Nole. And plays 4 m behind the basline.
Clearly not. Djoko really is faster nowadays by some margins.
More important changes direction faster.....and that takes amazing energy.
At the end of the day I think there is little difference in top doping diet. There is limitation to how much oxygnen you blood can carry and muscle mass very quickly in tennis becomes a liability as it consumes too much energy (Murray).
The difference is how one uses that energy. Nadal is clearly more in the arms, Djoko more in the legs.
Interesting.
What makes you say that?

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by ... on Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:42 pm

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:I think now Stan to beat  Ferrer and Murray to qualify for the semis.

Andy to drop to #3.
So who is the real number 3 Murray or Nadal?
Or Stan?

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:12 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
The point is, Nadal is as fast as Nole. And plays 4 m behind the basline.
Clearly not. Djoko really is faster nowadays by some margins.
More important changes direction faster.....and that takes amazing energy.
At the end of the day I think there is little difference in top doping diet. There is limitation to how much oxygnen you blood can carry and muscle mass very quickly in tennis becomes a liability as it consumes too much energy (Murray).
The difference is how one uses that energy. Nadal is clearly more in the arms, Djoko more in the legs.
Interesting.
What makes you say that?

First it's obvious and federer was confirming yesterday in his interview.

from 40s....
http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/fed-still-improving-at-34

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:13 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:I think now Stan to beat  Ferrer and Murray to qualify for the semis.

Andy to drop to #3.
So who is the real number 3 Murray or Nadal?
Or Stan?
Stan has won a slam....

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by luvsports! on Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:21 pm

luvsports! wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
luvsports! wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:LS,
Who do you think uses most energy per set?

Nadal but as I said, I thought he looked spent vs Nole at RG. If Nadal could get close to Nole in Bo5, i certainly don't think the extra energy expended by Rafa would make him outlast Nole. I think he would come up quite  abit short.

That particular match would have looked very different had they met in the final, not QF.
Nole was fresh for Nadal, that made all the difference on that court with those balls.

So a tired Nole, is not as fit as a fresh Rafa? Yet he looked fresh as a daisy swatting him aside.

Well a fresh Nole swatted aside Nadal with ease and Nadal looked tired. So what he wasn't tired for the qf?

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:42 pm

FK...this is for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFe1AtXJ7Wo

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by DECIMA on Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:32 pm



Nadal asked at 5:10 about him being the 'best volleyer on tour'; his response is interesting.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by ... on Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:32 pm

Tenez wrote:
First it's obvious and federer was confirming yesterday in his interview.

from 40s....
http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/fed-still-improving-at-34

It's not that clear to my eyes.
Nadal looks more natural in his movement and is a better sprinter, Nole has longer stride.

I differentiate speed and court coverage.

The thing I fin astonishing is his core power, ability to hit the ball at full pelt on the run or out of position.
I think that's what separates him from Nadal ana Murray, not speed.

You rarely see Nadal stretched or disfigured yet he retrieved everything just like Nole, so he's got to be quicker.


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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:34 pm

DONALD TRUMP wrote:Nadal asked at 5:10 about him being the 'best volleyer on tour'; his response is interesting.
yes the uncontrollable laugh says it all.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by ... on Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:41 pm

luvsports! wrote:
Well a fresh Nole swatted aside Nadal with ease and Nadal looked tired. So what he wasn't tired for the qf?
Looking tired as Tenez said and being tired does not apply to these superfit players.


That's why I am trying to get my head around how much they each have in the tank, and the best opportunity is to see when they play each other.

Best of three or best of five, not sure there is much difference now - when was the last time Nole/Murray/Nadal played a 5 setter against each other? (In the same day)

It's so physical now they can last against each other any more.
Murray capitulated after only one set both against Nole in Paris and Nadal today.

But if he saw the slightest dip in energy in them, he'd pounce straight back.

Nadal was superphysical in the first set and even two this RG.
He was actually more physical this than last year. (while he lasted)

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by ... on Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:48 pm

DONALD TRUMP wrote:

Nadal asked at 5:10 about him being the 'best volleyer on tour'; his response is interesting.
I love Nadal's English.
And Gasquet's.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by ... on Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:55 pm

Nadal saying how he doesn't like to serve fast (any more like he did that magic 2010USO) because the ball comes back fast.

COMMENT OF THE MILLENIUM!!!!!

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by luvsports! on Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:05 pm

Ok so in 2014 and 2013, Rafa uses more energy than Djoko and yet looks the fresher in their matches. Not the case this year.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by DECIMA on Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:08 pm

luvsports! wrote:Ok so in 2014 and 2013, Rafa uses more energy than Djoko and yet looks the fresher in their matches. Not the case this year.
We've already discussed this once before; so no need to have a repetition; but you still seem to be referring to the FO QF match this year extensively.
Nadal played crap, he lost the first 4 games where he was dropping the ball short and making sill UEs, and he lost the last set in the same fashion. I saw no signs at all that Nadal was getting more fatigued than usual after 2 sets, and to be frank there were hardly any long high intensity rallies as Djokovic was cruising.
Considering Djokovic was miles on top all throughout (apart from a really weird dip in the first set form 4-0 up), I can't see how you can draw any conclusions in this match. Against Fognini he had probably longer rallies, and played his best set in the 5th set.


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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by ... on Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:09 pm

luvsports! wrote:Ok so in 2014 and 2013, Rafa uses more energy than Djoko and yet looks the fresher in their matches. Not the case this year.

Good point.
2015 has been quite an interesting year.
Many players look different: Fed, Nole, Murray, Fognini, Anderson, Paire, Gasquet...and of course - Nadal.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by luvsports! on Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:16 pm

DONALD TRUMP wrote:
luvsports! wrote:Ok so in 2014 and 2013, Rafa uses more energy than Djoko and yet looks the fresher in their matches. Not the case this year.
We've already discussed this once before; so no need to have a repetition; but you still seem to be referring to the FO QF match this year extensively.
Nadal played crap, he lost the first 4 games where he was dropping the ball short and making sill UEs, and he lost the last set in the same fashion. I saw no signs at all that Nadal was getting more fatigued than usual after 2 sets, and to be frank there were hardly any long high intensity rallies as Djokovic was cruising.
Considering Djokovic was miles on top all throughout (apart from a really weird dip in the first set form 4-0 up), I can't see how you can draw any conclusions in this match. Against Fognini he had probably longer rallies, and played his best set in the 5th set.

Yes, but I don't agree with you..... 

He looked tired to me. He didn't to you. Simple.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by luvsports! on Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:19 pm

Ok so I see him as less physical this year as he couldnt outpower and physically dominate nole like he has in the past.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by ... on Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:21 pm

What did you make of him against Murray today?

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by ... on Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:24 pm

Wow, even Stan is being able to retrieve impressively on this court!

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:28 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
That's why I am trying to get my head around how much they each have in the tank, and the best opportunity is to see when they play each other.

They both lasted 5hours at the AO. I believe their blood contains the same formula. Nadal looks bigger but Djoko is one inch taller so to me there is not much in it. One thing for sure is that Djoko moves faster, bends down and up more.

Djoko looks like someone on clenbuterol (contador stuff) and/or testosterone.  Though of course I might be wrong but he looked particularly emaciated yesterday.[/quote]

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by ... on Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:37 pm

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
luvsports! wrote:
That's why I am trying to get my head around how much they each have in the tank, and the best opportunity is to see when they play each other.
They both lasted 5hours at the AO. I believe their blood contains the same formula. Nadal looks bigger but Djoko is one inch taller so to me there is not much in it. One thing for sure is that Djoko moves faster, bends down and up more.
Djoko looks like someone on clenbuterol (contador stuff) and/or testosterone.  Though of course I might be wrong but he looked particularly emaciated yesterday.

Ok, didn't know thinness is a symptom of doping. Now I know why you mentioned it yesterday.
But one thing I can see is the unnatural level of physicality in players.

Most players that have caught up can "just" last longer, but a few "trendsetters"look like physically superior/stronger specimen who can obliterate and juice out opposition in a set.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:48 pm

luvsports! wrote:Ok so I see him as less physical this year as he couldnt outpower and physically dominate nole like he has in the past.
Could that have anything to do with Nole?

Nadal coudl not do much v Nole in 2011 either....and though he did better in 2013 and 14 I think that had a lot to do with Djoko not being as convincing those 2 years as 2015.....so it's all relative here.

From the naked eye, I'd say Nadal this year certainly looked physically weaker at times....but it's not as clear cut as he certainly lacked confiddence too. And one thing which can be proven is that he is doing his best to stand closer, hence reducing the need for big muscles...hence last longer.....

I don;t think any of us can have a real clue of what's going on.

had nadal lost to PHM at FO06 or to Querrey, Youzhny, Haase in his early Wimby we woudl have come with completely different conclusions.

One thing is clear, he is changing his game and is more aggressive now thna ever.

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Re: ATP Tour Final - The Draw

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:58 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Ok, didn't know thinness is a symptom of doping. Now I know why you mentioned it yesterday.
I actually did not mention it with drug in mind but he certainly looked very lean, his legs muscles, joints and bones were really sharp (not sure how to describe it but simply with 0 fat to round it off).


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