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Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by Autumnleaf on Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:52 pm

This was a very acute analysis of the match imho. The focus is on the return and considering how much Federer usually has traditionally struggled with Nadal's lefty serve, his ROS was outstanding and put Nadal on the backfoot imediately on a lot of points which ensured he couldn't settle into his usual pattern.

http://www.mertovstennisdesk.com/2015/11/02/59-2-not-just-a-stat-for-federer/

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:23 pm

yes good article but I have yet to see the full match to really comment on.

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by Tenez on Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:29 pm

Having now watched 15mn of the final's hilights, it's clearer to me why Federer held his ground better. fed has beaten Nadal on this kind of surface a few times so it did not have to do something very different than in the past. However what is obvious here is that Nadal plays considerably less loop on his shots, tries to take the ball earlier so it represented a different challenge for fed.

What is obvious is that fed's BH is considerably faster here than in the past. he seems able to time the ball better from that side, thanks to nadal flatter shots and fed's larger frame.

nadal is often late on the shots thanks to that added pace and depth from fed's BH. This racquet (and nadal's more aggresive shots) makes fed's BH a bit more of a weapon as opposed to the liability it has been versus the roadrunners since 2006.

The return of serve is certainly helped by it as AL's article relates but above all, it's the BH as a whole whihc benefits from it.

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by luvsports! on Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:35 pm

And Feds' performance?
Below par right.
Rafa..?

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by Tenez on Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:21 pm

luvsports! wrote:And Feds' performance?
Below par right.
Rafa..?

Fed's perf was not as bad as I thought it was at first. He is quite aggressive....and in the highlight quite successful. ..but again I only saw a clip. I have seen him play better..but against Nadal, it was not bad.

Nadal? his usual self...just standing closer to the baseline. Difficult to compare hence with the past. He seemed to be playing better in Paris.....though he did not do as well.

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:26 pm

Nadal played better in Paris only because the court was slower, giving him more time and consequently instant confidence.

Basel final was very close.

I actually didn't watch the third set. I was that annoyed thinking Fed would lose.

Nadal won the physical armwrestle early in the second set.

Federer started the match very nervous. Then relaxed and played well, there were evem moments of pure atracking fluidity, but Nadal put the brakes on it as usual with his continuous retrieving.

As I said on the orevious page, it's his BH that kept him alive.
Nadal was taken by surprise as he wasn't able to break it.
It was the best bit.
Although not pretty to watch (by his usual graceful standards) it was a great little victory for that bigger racquet.

Nadal was also a little nervous. But not sure he would've been on that slow court in Paris.

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:29 pm

Nadal played better in Paris only because the court was slower, giving him more time and consequently instant confidence.

Basel final was very close.

I actually didn't watch the third set. I was that annoyed thinking Fed would lose.

Nadal won the physical armwrestle early in the second set.

Federer started the match very nervous. Then relaxed and played well, there were even moments of pure atracking fluidity, but Nadal put the brakes on it as usual with his continuous retrieving.

As I said on the orevious page, it's his BH that kept him alive.
Nadal was taken by surprise as he wasn't able to break it.
It was the best bit.
Although not pretty to watch (by his usual graceful standards) it was a great little victory for that bigger racquet.

Nadal was also a little nervous. But not sure he would've been on that slow court in Paris.

Anyway, looks like I'm the only one that watched the match.

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by luvsports! on Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:43 pm

Feds Nadal? I watched it. I was yelling at the screen and ruing the fact feds gave away the 2nd.

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:59 pm

Well, that was the whole thing!
He didn't give it away he was just physically finished.

That convinced me he was 100% clean.

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by luvsports! on Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:01 pm

Not for me. You admit you were a layman in this topic, but now you are 100% certain of something.

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by Tenez on Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:07 pm

It looks to me that you are trying to make a point or a rule about doping at the top rather than identifying clues of those doping. What out of this world physical performance did Fed produce in his career?

Also twice I have asked you the question about whether you still thought whether nadal was clean this season....and have not had an answer yet....maybe you missed them.

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by luvsports! on Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:01 am

I have answered about Rafa. I thought he was going clean, but now I think he is cleaner. I admit I could be wrong.

You see that is where you are conflating it. Peds don't have to give you out of this world physical performances do they?
Rusedski was on nandrolone and said if he was on it everyone us. We can't just take him for his word but it is important to recognise that players can be on all sorts of drugs. 

One thing I will say was v impressive. Feds playing back-back 5 setters vs Tsonga then Murray at Aus '13.

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by Tenez on Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:50 am

luvsports! wrote:
You see that is where you are conflating it. Peds don't have to give you out of this world physical performances do they?
I'd disagree. If you dope you dope to the best products. No-one is going to take the risk for an improved orange juice which can destroy your whole career.

I have seen Federer beat any player, including Nadal, effortlessly. And I have seen him lose without being close physically to some of the competition. And that to me is key.  Therefore I don't think he'd take the risk to destroy his career for a few matches.


One thing I will say was v impressive. Feds playing back-back 5 setters vs Tsonga then Murray at Aus '13.
But he ended up losing his second 5 setter. But more importantly, it's his style of play. It's not geared towards lasting. His strategy today cannot be clearer. He is ready to lose a point by taking a huge risk on a return, kamikase volley or line FH, in order to stop the running.

It says it all I am afraid. You will only see Djoko and co do that when they are ahead, never on key points like Fed does.

Having said that. I am not sure 100% either..but knowing how effortlessly he won so many slams, I think he would be stupid to compromise it all on a few key matches (which most of them he lost anyway). and then keeping his urine samples for 10 years.after he retires....to prove a point. And all that to benefit of a stronger coffee instead of the real stuff? doesn't make sense.

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by luvsports! on Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:53 am

Tenez wrote:
luvsports! wrote:
You see that is where you are conflating it. Peds don't have to give you out of this world physical performances do they?
I'd disagree. If you dope you dope to the best products. No-one is going to take the risk for an improved orange juice which can destroy your whole career.

I have seen Federer beat any player, including Nadal, effortlessly. And I have seen him lose without being close physically to some of the competition. And that to me is key.  Therefore I don't think he'd take the risk to destroy his career for a few matches.


One thing I will say was v impressive. Feds playing back-back 5 setters vs Tsonga then Murray at Aus '13.
But he ended up losing his second 5 setter. But more importantly, it's his style of play. It's not geared towards lasting. His strategy today cannot be clearer. He is ready to lose a point by taking a huge risk on a return, kamikase volley or line FH, in order to stop the running.

It says it all I am afraid. You will only see Djoko and co do that when they are ahead, never on key points like Fed does.

Having said that. I am not sure 100% either..but knowing how effortlessly he won so many slams, I think he would be stupid to compromise it all on a few key matches (which most of them he lost anyway). and then keeping his urine samples for 10 years.after he retires....to prove a point. And all that to benefit of a stronger coffee instead of the real stuff? doesn't make sense.

Well that isn't true. Cycling proves that. Cyclists have admitted they were on supplements but then went into things like transfusions and epo and rocketed into the big time. 
Cycling has an epitestosterone-testosterone ratio of 2;1, tennis and swimming 4;1... why?

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by Tenez on Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:20 am

luvsports! wrote:Well that isn't true. Cycling proves that. Cyclists have admitted they were on supplements but then went into things like transfusions and epo and rocketed into the big time. 
Cycling has an epitestosterone-testosterone ratio of 2;1, tennis and swimming 4;1... why?

What isn't true? be a bit more precise.

Where did you read those ratios? They vary so much for one athlete to another. Landis had a 11/1 ratio when he got caught.....and I doubt cyclists woudl have 2/1.


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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:39 am

Fed never takes more than 10-15 secs between his serves/points.

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by Tenez on Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:47 am

noleisthebest wrote:Fed never takes more than 10-15 secs between his serves/points.

That's another good point. It's a clear indication he is not benefiting from epo substances. His body is rather normal and uses timing more than anybody else to generate pace so I doubt he woudl benefit much from steroids.

Not sure what LS has in mind regarding Fed's special diet.

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:51 am

Also, I think people don't quite  understand energy efficiency in ball striking.

Just off the top of my analogue head, I'd say the energy Nadal uses for one of his 4m behind the baseline CC FHs must be about at least 5 times more than sweetly timed, early taken ball by Federer or Nishi.

Nadal's fitness is monstrous compared to Nole's and even Murray's.

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by Tenez on Tue Nov 10, 2015 12:21 pm

noleisthebest wrote:

Nadal's fitness is monstrous compared to Nole's and even Murray's.

Not so sure about that. being able to move as fast as Djoko is very energy consuming too. As I said in an earlier post, the split second differences in starting off the blocks are big energy differences too. Plus being able to bend down and up half of his body in all corners takes more energy than an arm swing (even from Nadal). To me Djoko looks nowadays as close to Lance as anybody else.

Murray is probably the one who uses most energy but he obviously got his muscle mass/stamina ratios wrong, so it works well against the lower players but not so against the top ones.

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:31 pm

Nole's energy goes into movement, chasing the ball.
When he gets to it, his exceptional elasticity and strength of core muscles give him the stability to strike the ball well even though he is out of position.

That separates him from the rest as his unique "talent" or ability he's worked on for years.
The way he tracked and returned (with venom) some of Murray's deep, CC FH projectiles on Sunday was astonishing.

The reason I think Nadal's fitness is superior is that he uses as much energy for movement as Nole but so much more for his ball-striking and still managed to outlast him until recently.

Nole does not have muscles, biceps like Nadal or Murray, and definitely muscles the ball less and rarer than both.

AO 12 final is an ultimate example for me. Nadal kept toe to toe with Nole for 6 hours, 4m behind the baseline, lasso & all...

As for back to back 5 setters, good examples are Nadal's 5 setter against Verdasco followed by Federer AO (09?), as well as Nole's AO, I forgot which one now, he beat Stan in the semi in 5 sets and then also 5 sets in the final I think.

Also, Nishi played two five setters back to back INCLUDING beating Nole in USO 2014, before collapsing to Cilic.

Stan also showed his improved fitness when he beat Nole and Nadal when he won his AO.

I agree Murray's stuffed.
He lives by the muscles until the SF/F and then dies by the same in the F (or SF, depending on whether he avoids Federer).

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by Tenez on Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:15 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Nole's energy goes into movement, chasing the ball.
When he gets to it, his exceptional elasticity and strength of core muscles give him the stability to strike the ball well even though he is out of position.
That mouvement requires lots of energy. There is no going around that. he uses his lightness to make a difference but he is also playing an extremely physical game. If he was as agile as Murray, then fine but he is much more mobile.....it doesn;t look like but that burns lots of calories and certainly can explain his recurring drops of form in the middle of matches.

That separates him from the rest as his unique "talent" or ability he's worked on for years.
The way he tracked and returned (with venom) some of Murray's deep, CC FH projectiles on Sunday was astonishing.
Unique for now but like we thought of Nadal, more will come like him soon. Coric is on his way, just to name one.

The reason I think Nadal's fitness is superior is that he uses as much energy for movement as Nole but so much more for his ball-striking and still managed to outlast him until recently.
That's arguable nowadays. Djoko is one inch talle (that's quite a bit), yet moves less naturally than Nadal (according to you even) but gets to the ball quicker and bends his body much more....so I am not convince he uses less energy on mouvement, on the contrary.

Nole does not have muscles, biceps like Nadal or Murray, and definitely muscles the ball less and rarer than both.
True but to use less energy you have to get to the ball quicker, and/or bend your body more than anybody else. There was a clear change in Djoko's pace and stamina before and after 2011....right at the 2010/11 off season. And that is not thanks to his gluten free diet!

AO 12 final is an ultimate example for me. Nadal kept toe to toe with Nole for 6 hours, 4m behind the baseline, lasso & all...
So was Djoko, quite far back or having to run faster to catch Nadal's powerful FH.

As for back to back 5 setters, good examples are Nadal's 5 setter against Verdasco followed by Federer AO (09?), as well as Nole's AO, I forgot which one now, he beat Stan in the semi in 5 sets and then also 5 sets in the final I think.
Yep Noles AO 2012is probably as impressive as nadal's.

Stan also showed his improved fitness when he beat Nole and Nadal when he won his AO.
he has been showing it for a while.

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:41 pm

He,he Winking
I'm not saying he is clean or trying to justify it, just explain why I think Nadal is fitter.

Nole has longer legs  than Nadal so makes up for Nadal's more natural, smoother lateral movement.
Nadal's legs are so fast, he keeps his body lower to the ground, too; Murray looks similar but less natural as he is just heavier as well as taller.

Forward movement is different, and there Nole is better than both Nadal and Murray.

Anyway, my main point was energy spent on ballstriking. The sheer power that goes into the shot, how hard they all hit the ball.

I was thinking of making an energy chart of players, but too busy atm.

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by Tenez on Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:49 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Anyway, my main point was energy spent on ballstriking.
yes but there is more to it than the swing of the arm. being able to be on the shot with time to spare is very brawn consuming too and can make up for the difference in arm muscles.

To me they are all 3 filled to the gills but Djoko has the best ratio. I mean he chose to be good for the long haul. I am not sure Djoko is more talented than the other 2, but his mouvement gives him a huge advantage on every shot as he gets that extra split second extra to make a better and safer shot. That is actually his strength.

I was thinking of making an energy chart of players, but to busy atm.

That woudl be interesting!

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:34 pm

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
Anyway, my main point was energy spent on ballstriking.
yes but there is more to it than the swing of the arm. being able to be on the shot with time to spare is very brawn consuming too and can make up for the difference in arm muscles.
I am well aware of that. Winking

Legs do the main work and consume most energy...hence "the art" of long rallies in current tennis.

I was trying to pinpoint where Nole gets current ease/domination.
I think he's somehow perfected the balance between running and making his opponents run.
He broke Murray's spirit in the second point of the match on Sunday!

Tenez wrote:To me they are all 3 filled to the gills but Djoko has the best ratio. I mean he chose to be good for the long haul. I am not sure Djoko is more talented than the other 2, but his mouvement gives him a huge advantage on every shot as he gets that extra split second extra to make a better and safer shot. That is actually his strength.
I think he is the most talented.
The only one who beat Fed clean, back in 2007.
He's got a good feel in his wrist, not sure how else to put it, always had good shot length from the baseline, but not in the bashing way.
His game has changed since 2013. It's more artificial now, but also more effective and efficient.
I wonder what his tennis will look like when he's 32.
Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
I was thinking of making an energy chart of players, but to busy atm.

That woudl be interesting!

I'll need a bit of thinking and maybe help there.

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by luvsports! on Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:18 pm

Tenez wrote:
luvsports! wrote:Well that isn't true. Cycling proves that. Cyclists have admitted they were on supplements but then went into things like transfusions and epo and rocketed into the big time. 
Cycling has an epitestosterone-testosterone ratio of 2;1, tennis and swimming 4;1... why?

What isn't true? be a bit more precise.

Where did you read those ratios? They vary so much for one athlete to another. Landis had a 11/1 ratio when he got caught.....and I doubt cyclists woudl have 2/1.


Wada guidelines are 4;1. I swear I read that cycling was 2/1, could be wrong.
One example. I re-read Rough Ride by Paul Kimmage (worth a read). He took supplements just to survive riding the tour. There was much better stuff going around but he didn't take it. 

I love Feds so much but I question most things. He played not much short of 100 matches when he was at his most successful. 
He has out of this world talent for sure, but I think that the best player ever to be completely clean, raises scepticism.

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:10 am

You think he might but there is no obvious smoking guns. When I see Rublev at 17 able to pull so many winners based on sheer consistent aggression, I can also imagine that some might not need that extra stuff.....though I agree it's getting much tougher out there at teh very top.

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by Autumnleaf on Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:15 pm

luvsports! wrote:I love Feds so much but I question most things. He played not much short of 100 matches when he was at his most successful. 
He has out of this world talent for sure, but I think that the best player ever to be completely clean, raises scepticism.
Completely agree unfortunately. He was what? 92-5 in 2006? And back then quite a few MS1000s had best-of-5 finals. Simply incredible. Played 5 sets vs. young Nadal on clay, even got MP. Won the big prizes over a 4-year-period with a consistency that was unheard of until then. Now we got used to this consistency, but it's not normal! Barring Nadal there was probably no player back then who was in any way superior athletically to Roger.

Even now he is among the very best athletes in the sport. With any certainty I'd rate only Djokodal higher at the moment overall. There are faster and stronger guys like Murray, but for his superior agility and balance I'd still give the nod to Fed. (It's arguable.) To be such a s great athlete and one of the best talents the sport has ever seen - seems too good to be true.

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by luvsports! on Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:29 pm

Good post.
On this topic I would like to think I am more objective than most (but referred to as a conspiracy theorist etc or just wrong - fair enough to the latter), but if Feds got caught and others didn't, it would kill me.
When you become too engrossed and entrenched in something, it can become visceral and your open mindedness and impartiality wavers. This could be the case for me with Feds. 

I would love it if he was clean but I am skeptical.

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:37 pm

I d have no problem admitting fed dopes.

I simply do not see it. I see him getting tired so easily and so quickly that frankly I haven't seen any special performance from him...though I admit it is a great athlete.....but with so much grace that frankly this is someone who is in control of his every single muscle cell....he woudl not be as gracious if he were doped.


And wanting to appear objective is already a subjective approach.

I personally don't care whether Fed is doped or not. In fact I woudl have wished he had doped at times.....but clearly he was not taking the right stuff. From 2007 or 8 he was saying that TMS1000 were harder for him than slams because there was no recovery days.

And how many matches were mc, Connors or laver playing per year? More than 100 for sure!

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by luvsports! on Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:44 pm

And Mac admitted to taking drugs and I woldn't be surprised if COnnors did too.

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by Autumnleaf on Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:37 pm

luvsports! wrote:And Mac admitted to taking drugs and I woldn't be surprised if COnnors did too.
To be fair he admitted to taking corticosteroids. They aren't PEDs.

@Tenez Agree that it's not important, in fact maybe it would be a good thing? I also joke around he should get on the good stuff before a tournament. Winking

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Re: Ladies And Gentlemen: It's Fedal!

Post by luvsports! on Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:52 pm

Well they can help with an athlete's recovery.

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