Novak Djokovic: 2011 or 2015, Which One Is Better?

Many will remember 2011 as the crazy year of Novak Djokovic. (I certainly do! )

He won 3 slams, had an unbeatable streak of 47 wins (ruined by that naughty man Fognini! )

He beat Nadal on clay for the first time, finished the year as number one, was ripping Sergio Tacchini t-shirts, voted Laureus sportsman of the year...


But what about 2015?

Also 3 slams, 4 slam finals 10/11 finals of the tournaments he entered, he beat Nadal in RG in straight sets, OK, he is wearing Uniqlo, but is already year end number one even before the last quarter of the year has started!


In 2011, he was battling Nadal's physicality, in 2015 Federer's talent and skill.

2011 may look more impressive as noone expected such a roar from the ex eternal number three, but in 2015, he appears equally dominating and unstoppable. They say it's harder to stay at than reach the top...


So, which year is better?

He says himself he is playing much better....I think is mouvement has even gone a few notches up. What is impressive in 2011 is his winning streak but we forget that there was very close matches then who could have made this streak a non event.

Whereas this year, he has been quite comfortable winning 3rd sets and 5th sets. No-one is close fitness wise.

Who voted for 2011? (and why?)

2011 his competition was much harder, Nadal and Federer both playing great.

Now competition much easier, Nadal totally declined, and Federer slightly declined and less effective in BO5.

Tenez wrote:He says himself he is playing much better....I think is mouvement has even gone a few notches up.  What is impressive in 2011 is his winning streak but we forget that there was very close matches then who could have made this streak a non event.

Whereas this year, he has been quite comfortable winning 3rd sets and 5th sets. No-one is close fitness wise.

Yes, looks like he is able to cope with 25sec rule much better than Nadal.

Kim Jong-Un wrote:2011 his competition was much harder, Nadal and Federer both playing great.

Now competition much easier, Nadal totally declined, and Federer slightly declined and less effective in BO5.

Nadal definitely presented a more physical challenge at the time, but I disagree it was tougher then.

Nole has simply improved a lot since 2011, and Nadal remained the same.
Federer is also better now.

But not in bo5. Tires quicker.

Seriously, he never hits the bhdtl anymore. It was THE shot in '11.

luvsports! wrote:But not in bo5. Tires quicker.

Seriously, he never hits the bhdtl anymore. It was THE shot in '11.

I am actually not sure about that. Djoko has always played 90% CC. But it is not this that gave him success in 2011. It was his ability to outlast nadal and Murray in AO, Miami, IW, Rome, etc...Nowadays he plays simply better and moves better. It's not close actually, I am not sure why there is such discussion.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/rankings/singles?rankDate=2011-04-04

luvsports! wrote:But not in bo5. Tires quicker.

Seriously, he never hits the bhdtl anymore. It was THE shot in '11.

To me, in 2011 Nole played almost the same as Coric is playing now.
The only slight difference was the confidence which grew as his streak went on.

noleisthebest wrote:

luvsports! wrote:But not in bo5. Tires quicker.

Seriously, he never hits the bhdtl anymore. It was THE shot in '11.

To me, in 2011 Nole played almost the same as Coric is playing now.

I think you take what Tenez says as if it's the Bible.

The 2011 one is better and the stats also support it.  2015 is a very weak time for tennis.  You have a 34 year old as WN2 who is not playing as good as he was in 2011 (and was still miles away from his 2004-07 standard), and Nadal who is absolutely nowhere (in 2011 he was a major threat).  And no one else apart from Stan.

But the younger players are going to start hitting their peak and Novak is going to be finished like Nadal shortly also (just watch.  There's no hope in him defending those points either).  To be frank, I can't wait until the end of Murray Nadal Djok Fed now... it's become tedious.  The new era awaits.

He says himself he is playing much better...

The argument from authority is especially poor when it;s coming from the person in question.  Federer routinely says he is playing better despite the fact we can all see that he isn't.  And I remember Jimmy White and Stephen Hendry making claims they were in a rut but playing better than ever.  And we all saw how that ended.

FedererKing wrote:The 2011 one is better and the stats also support it.  2015 is a very weak time for tennis.  You have a 34 year old as WN2 who is not playing as good as he was in 2011 (and was still miles away from his 2004-07 standard), and Nadal who is absolutely nowhere (in 2011 he was a major threat).  And no one else apart from Stan.

And how do you explain Stan (30)  being able to beat both Nole (in slams!) as well as Fed?
Where was Stan in 2011?

Nole is a superior player now in every single aspect of his game. I've been watching him live for 6 years now and he is striking the ball harder than ever. Not to mention the variety.
He has been working very, very hard all these years. Now probably more than ever.

Tennis is a dynamic thing - many things change at once: age, fitness, ball timing, game/variety improving (adding more shots) etc and all this pushes the game forward.

The only difference is some have more potential to develop than others. That's why Nadal looks stagnant, although he's been working just as hard as everyone else.

Noone can afford to do nothing and rest on laurels.

Delpo will probably struggle to ever come back.

In addition to the above post, as Tenez observed sharply (yet again!),  technology has not changed much in the last 10 years (unlike medicine) and young players are finding it hard to break through with any new edge.
They simply have to wait for their bodies to mature in order to catch up firstly physically and then game wise/experience on top, as well.

Unless you are Coric, Zverev who chose to take shortcuts.

Until things speed up, Nole's got another 2 years to haul slams in.

Let's be honest, who can stop him at the moment but himself?

FedererKing wrote:The 2011 one is better and the stats also support it.  2015 is a very weak time for tennis.  You have a 34 year old as WN2 who is not playing as good as he was in 2011 (and was still miles away from his 2004-07 standard), and Nadal who is absolutely nowhere (in 2011 he was a major threat).  And no one else apart from Stan.

But the younger players are going to start hitting their peak and Novak is going to be finished like Nadal shortly also (just watch.  There's no hope in him defending those points either).  To be frank, I can't wait until the end of Murray Nadal Djoko Fed now... it's become tedious.  The new era awaits.

He says himself he is playing much better...

The argument from authority is especially poor when it;s coming from the person in question.  Federer routinely says he is playing better despite the fact we can all see that he isn't.  And I remember Jimmy White and Stephen Hendry making claims they were in a rut but playing better than ever.  And we all saw how that ended.

Not a surprising response from you. But I am a bit stunned that you trust your judgement more than the people who are on the ground and put the hard work in and experience hands down the fierce competition out there.

The argument of belittling those champions impressions is a last desperation attempt.

Oh come on Tenez, stop taking PR statements so seriously when it suits your arguments.

Do you actually believe as NITB said that Coric now is as good as Djokovic 2011 ?

Kim Jong-Un wrote:Oh come on Tenez, stop taking PR statements so seriously when it suits your arguments.

Do you actually believe as NITB said that Coric now is as good as Djokovic 2011 ?

PR statements? Was Nadal saying he is injured a PR statement? Is he saying now that he is fine a PR statement? Is Federer saying that his serve is now more powerful a PR statement? You have players from all board saying the same thing but to you it's PR statement? You are the one dismissing what they all say because it doesn't suit you. Not the other way around. When Pete said he played better in 2012 than in 1997 was that a PR statement? did he get any money from sponsors saying that years later?

Frankly you are not very serious....again should I add.

That takes me back to that analog/digital discusssion and once again I notice that some fail to see Djoko's improvement because they rely on digitally data they cannot analyse. It doesn't matter whether Djoko had been winning more in 2011 or even if he had not lost a match that year. It's simply obvious he is a better player now. He would have won 4 slams in a row if it was not for Stan's graceful day.

Are you seriously trying to say that Nadal wouldn't have been a huge blockade to Djokovic in 2011 for the French Open? Or is Stan 2015 now as good as Nadal 2011 at RG?

There's been no-one this year capable of standing up to Djokovic other than Stan.  Federer doesn't have the belief and his game isn't near what it was.  Nadal is nowhere. And Djokovic has had some very lucky draws (his US Open 2015 draw was a complete peach compared to Federer and Murray). Who else is there to challenge Djokovic?  But like I say, that's going to come to a sudden end.  This year, there's been no-one.

Federer is an amazing player, imho (and most people's) the greatest - but having a 34 year old WN2 who reaches the finals of two Slams is the best outcome Djokovic can have, especially given Federer is mentally shot.  It's not a good reflection on the strength of 2015.

FedererKing wrote:Are you seriously trying to say that Nadal wouldn't have been a huge blockade to Djokovic in 2011 for the French Open? Or is Stan 2015 now as good as Nadal 2011 at RG?

There's been no-one this year capable of standing up to Djokovic other than Stan.  Federer doesn't have the belief and his game isn't near what it was.  Nadal is nowhere. And Djokovic has had some very lucky draws (his US Open 2015 draw was a complete peach compared to Federer and Murray). Who else is there to challenge Djokovic?  But like I say, that's going to come to a sudden end.  This year, there's been no-one.

Federer is an amazing player, imho (and most people's) the greatest - but having a 34 year old WN2 who reaches the finals of two Slams is the best outcome Djokovic can have, especially given Federer is mentally shot.  It's not a good reflection on the strength of 2015.

If anyone ever had belief it's Federer.
Didn't you see how he dismantled Nole in Cinci?

I gather you can't see the difference in how much better everyone is now, but that's essential.

These are very exciting times in tennis, you watch Federer in full flow now - that's tennis from another planet.

Tenez, you didn't answer my question; do you think Coric now is as good as Djokovic in 2011 as NITB said ?

Btw I think Djokovic is very similar in level to what he was in 2011. Maybe his BH DTL is worse and his volleys are better; but let's be honest he hasn't made any radical changes in the 4 years.

Kim Jong-Un wrote:Btw I think Djokovic is very similar in level to what he was in 2011. Maybe his BH DTL is worse and his volleys are better; but let's be honest he hasn't made any radical changes in the 4 years.

What exactly do you mean by "level"?

Results?

noleisthebest wrote:

Kim Jong-Un wrote:Btw I think Djokovic is very similar in level to what he was in 2011. Maybe his BH DTL is worse and his volleys are better; but let's be honest he hasn't made any radical changes in the 4 years.

What exactly do you mean by "level"?

Results?

No, if I meant results I would have said results.

I think his game on the whole has stayed very similar; not edge of your seat stuff but very effective:
Keeping the ball at a deep length with not a lot of pace, creating angles to move the opponent around, and fantastic movement and deep return of serves to neutralise the opponent's attack.

It's like he's looked at Federer and Nadal, taken out their weaknesses, and tried to make the best but moderate compromise (ofc not on purpose, but that's how it feels its turned out). Federer matches, and Nadal matches; were both pretty unique, but they had one thing in common in that there was a more attacking player in each of them. Federer in his match was the attacking player, while Nadal in his matches was the counter puncher. But Djokovic at his best tries to change that dynamic completely. Literally nothing can be happening and he'd just be winning around 75% of the points, not really attacking with pace himself but still having enough depth to ensure the other player can't attack either.

FECK YOU WALES YOU BASTARDS, ENGLAND ARE USELESS AHHHHHHHHHHH

Kim Jong-Un wrote:Tenez, you didn't answer my question; do you think Coric now is as good as Djokovic in 2011 as NITB said ?

I have not seen Coric play much and can't quite remember Djoko 11. However this year I am particularly impressed by Djoko's court speed (started to be in WTF 14). I know he was fast before but he is faster today..and that is his main strength. That makes all his shots steadier that in 2011, and it even allows him to dictate..in 2011 he was absorbing a lot more.

luvsports! wrote:FECK YOU WALES YOU BASTARDS, ENGLAND ARE USELESS AHHHHHHHHHHH

WOW...I left it at 22-12 for England! Did not expect that from there.

Kim Jong-Un wrote:But Djokovic at his best tries to change that dynamic completely. Literally nothing can be happening and he'd just be winning around 75% of the points, not really attacking with pace himself but still having enough depth to ensure the other player can't attack either.

Agree with this.

regarding winning 75% of the points ....... v Federer in that USO final there was 2 points between them out of 300 I believe.

noleisthebest wrote:

FedererKing wrote:Are you seriously trying to say that Nadal wouldn't have been a huge blockade to Djokovic in 2011 for the French Open? Or is Stan 2015 now as good as Nadal 2011 at RG?

There's been no-one this year capable of standing up to Djokovic other than Stan.  Federer doesn't have the belief and his game isn't near what it was.  Nadal is nowhere. And Djokovic has had some very lucky draws (his US Open 2015 draw was a complete peach compared to Federer and Murray). Who else is there to challenge Djokovic?  But like I say, that's going to come to a sudden end.  This year, there's been no-one.

Federer is an amazing player, imho (and most people's) the greatest - but having a 34 year old WN2 who reaches the finals of two Slams is the best outcome Djokovic can have, especially given Federer is mentally shot.  It's not a good reflection on the strength of 2015.

If anyone ever had belief it's Federer.
Didn't you see how he dismantled Nole in Cinci?

I gather you can't see the difference in how much better everyone is now, but that's essential.

These are very exciting times in tennis, you watch Federer in full flow now - that's tennis from another planet.

No.  Federer does not have the belief against Djokovic.  Not anymore (he used to because he used to play far better).  Anyone witnessing his massive list of unforced errors and 1st serve % down the toilet in the US Open Final (and Wimbledon) can clearly see he has lost before he steps on court.  Only Djokovic and Nadal have a mental edge over him, but since one of those two was in all 4 finals this year, OBVIOUSLY that's going to count.  And it did.

In Fed's prime, only Nadal on clay had this mental edge, but now Djokovic has it in all Slam matches. Federer doesn't believe that he can win.  Had he actually turned up positive there is every chance, even at 34, that he could have beaten Djokovic.  But it was obvious from the very first game that the nervous Federer had arrived.  In my opinion, the only chance Federer has to add to his slam tally is that he doesn't meet Djokovic or Nadal. Nadal is not what he once was but I doubt it will matter because I fear Federer will crap his pants.  If Federer could bring his youthful mentality to the matches, he'd definitely have won a Slam this year.  But that's another thing age destroys - belief.  All those losses mount up and the confidence goes out the window.  That's part of the reason Nadal is getting hammered.

And should a few bad defeats befall Djokovic next year, he'll be joining Nadal.  

Contrary to the Tenez Bible, tennis is far more than speed and stamina.  It's a massively skilled game that requires pin-point precision at the professional level and any drop in any department is a very bad thing. Psychology is a huge part of tennis.  Wawrinka is another good example.  He had the ability all those years but won nothing because he didn't have the belief.  Federer and Nadal have gone backwards in the psychological department, but that is again the result of mounting losses, a result of decline.

FedererKing wrote:
No.  Federer does not have the belief against Djokovic.  Not anymore (he used to because he used to play far better).  Anyone witnessing his massive list of unforced errors and 1st serve % down the toilet in the US Open Final (and Wimbledon) can clearly see he has lost before he steps on court.  Only Djokovic and Nadal have a mental edge over him, but since one of those two was in all 4 finals this year, OBVIOUSLY that's going to count.  And it did.

In Fed's prime, only Nadal on clay had this mental edge, but now Djokovic has it in all Slam matches. Federer doesn't believe that he can win.  Had he actually turned up positive there is every chance, even at 34, that he could have beaten Djokovic.  But it was obvious from the very first game that the nervous Federer had arrived.  In my opinion, the only chance Federer has to add to his slam tally is that he doesn't meet Djokovic or Nadal. Nadal is not what he once was but I doubt it will matter because I fear Federer will crap his pants.  If Federer could bring his youthful mentality to the matches, he'd definitely have won a Slam this year.  But that's another thing age destroys - belief.  All those losses mount up and the confidence goes out the window.  That's part of the reason Nadal is getting hammered.

And should a few bad defeats befall Djokovic next year, he'll be joining Nadal.  

Contrary to the Tenez Bible, tennis is far more than speed and stamina.  It's a massively skilled game that requires pin-point precision at the professional level and any drop in any department is a very bad thing. Psychology is a huge part of tennis. 1 Wawrinka is another good example.  He had the ability all those years but won nothing because he didn't have the belief.  Federer and Nadal have gone backwards in the psychological department, but that is again the result of mounting losses, a result of decline.

I am sorry, but I don't follow your logic: how come Stan finds belief at the age of 30 against players that "owned" him: Nadal, Djokovic, Federer...?
According to all you've been saying, Stan should be declining.

Kim Jong-Un wrote:
No, if I meant results I would have said results.

I think his game on the whole has stayed very similar; not edge of your seat stuff but very effective:
Keeping the ball at a deep length with not a lot of pace, creating angles to move the opponent around, and fantastic movement and deep return of serves to neutralise the opponent's attack.

It's like he's looked at Federer and Nadal, taken out their weaknesses, and tried to make the best but moderate compromise (ofc not on purpose, but that's how it feels its turned out). Federer matches, and Nadal matches; were both pretty unique, but they had one thing in common in that there was a more attacking player in each of them. Federer in his match was the attacking player, while Nadal in his matches was the counter puncher. But Djokovic at his best tries to change that dynamic completely. Literally nothing can be happening and he'd just be winning around 75% of the points, not really attacking with pace himself but still having enough depth to ensure the other player can't attack either.

Everyone's game remains similar, it's the continuous small improvements and changes they all add (according to how much their potential allows them to and if they work very hard at it) that all add up and evolve tennis on the whole, too:

with Nole, the main improvement I noticed is better ball timing, he hits it harder but at the same time safer now.
He has eliminated almost any risk from his game - that's why he is so tough to beat.

Unless conditions become faster (look no further than Cinci) he is very much in his groove.

It's the "defenders'" market atm.

Stan has physically declined since his mid 20s.  It's just now he is much stronger mentally.  The problem you and Tenez have is that you see one or two variables instead of hundreds, and you have no idea of how each of them interacts.  This isn't a simple affair.  Also, Wawinka has far less miles on the clock than Federer, so comparing Wawrinka at 30 to Federer at 30 isn't fair in the slightest (and Federer still won a Slam at 30).

Had Wawrinka the same mental strength from the start - the same belief - he would now be sitting on more than two Slam wins. He's left it too late now, and at the tail end of his physical side.  Wawrinka was far better than his results were showing but he was mentally weak.  Was.  No longer.  On the other hand, Federer and Nadal went from winning everything to shock losses that led to them declining mentally as well. Human nature, and nature itself, is far more complex than you are supposing.

I am very interested to know how you define "mental strength", from what you've been saying, it looks like belief can be turned on tap for some.

How come Federer and Nadal are losing it and Stan is gaining it?

And where does Djokovic stand in all that?

FedererKing wrote:Stan has physically declined since his mid 20s.  It's just now he is much stronger mentally.  The problem you and Tenez have is that you see one or two variables instead of hundreds, and you have no idea of how each of them interacts.

We are not talking about where a player is better and worse than before, we are talking about players being "better" or "declining". It would not matter whether Fed was on wheelchair or had a blind stick if he was still playing better than in 2007. A player is better or worse. end of. And Stan is better now than 3 or 4 years ago. It's bloody obvious, it's even more obvious for his competition. Only you, it  seems, don't want to see it.

Had Wawrinka the same mental strength from the start - the same belief - he would now be sitting on more than two Slam wins. He's left it too late now, and at the tail end of his physical side.  Wawrinka was far better than his results were showing but he was mentally weak.  Was.  No longer.  On the other hand, Federer and Nadal went from winning everything to shock losses that led to them declining mentally as well. Human nature, and nature itself, is far more complex than you are supposing.

Ask yourself, what makes him mentally stronger? Has it got anything to do with having more consistent weapons? more fitness? One doesn't just become mentally fit, especially in tennis where a risk is taken on every single shot.

Hmmmmmm.

Not sure the logic that had fit the bill for Federer's improvement can then be applied to Djokovic.

For the reason being that I don't think Djokovic is a better player than in 2011.

It stands the reason that more experience will make any individual in any profession better. I think that formula only works provided something isn't taken out. With Djokovic that applies. I don't see anything in his game that is any better that makes it unique enough to have developed his game. He might hit the ball harder, but I don't see that as being a massive improvement that that alone has won him matches. If anything, I think Djokovic is far more less aggressive than he was in 2011. Djokovic's 2015 hasn't been as impressive as 2011. I was actually wowed with how he done it in 2011. 2015 has left me meh, because 1) He hasn't been pushed hard enough. 2) He hasn't played with any style.

I am not sure whether Federer is a better player now than in 2012. It's very difficult to see whether his more varied tactics nowadays can replace his superior stamina of 2012. It's a close call. I however think that the best set of Fed 2015 is probably as good as Fed's past best sets. being as good for 2 or 3 sets in another challenge.

Regarding Djoko. It's dead obvious he is better. He is simply quicker and anticipates better. To me Djoko 2015 is far more impressive than 2011. Djoko never had "style" and never will. He simply runs faster, returns better, and handles all his opponents better.

It's as simple as that .

LK, just compare any of Murray v Djoko match of 2011, 2012 with USO 2014. You will see the huge progress both made.

Tenez wrote:I am not sure whether Federer is a better player now than in 2012. It's very difficult to see whether  his more varied tactics nowadays can replace his superior stamina of 2012. It's a close call. I however think that the best set of Fed 2015 is probably as good as Fed's past best sets. being as good for 2 or 3 sets in another challenge.

Regarding Djoko. It's dead obvious he is better. He is simply quicker and anticipates better. To me Djoko 2015 is far more impressive than 2011. Djoko never had "style" and never will. He simply runs faster, returns better, and handles all his opponents better.

It's as simple as that .

It's two different racquets, but for me, tennis he played in Cinci this year was better than anything I ever saw from Fed.

legendkillar wrote:Hmmmmmm.

Not sure the logic that had fit the bill for Federer's improvement can then be applied to Djokovic.

For the reason being that I don't think Djokovic is a better player than in 2011.

It stands the reason that more experience will make any individual in any profession better. I think that formula only works provided something isn't taken out. With Djokovic that applies. I don't see anything in his game that is any better that makes it unique enough to have developed his game. He might hit the ball harder, but I don't see that as being a massive improvement that that alone has won him matches. If anything, I think Djokovic is far more less aggressive than he was in 2011. Djokovic's 2015 hasn't been as impressive as 2011. I was actually wowed with how he done it in 2011. 2015 has left me meh, because 1) He hasn't been pushed hard enough. 2) He hasn't played with any style.

He,he you don't have to believe Djokovic saying he is playing better than ever, but surely you must believe it if I say so!

He is so dominant now. Just look at the points, he must be 6000-7000 ahead of Fed and almost double Murray's.

Nadal can't touch him now and he was close in 2011, even topped him in 2013.

And before you say how Nadal is declining, here is what he said a few days ago:
=================================

"It was a tough year, because I was playing with too much anxiety for a lot of motnhs, especially at the beginning of the season.

Now I feel much better about that. Not a hundred per cent fix, but much better. (I'm) close to being 100 per cent fixed. And I am enjoying being on a tennis court, the practices, the competition.

During the first five, six, seven months of the season I was feeling very tired. Every time I was playing, every time I was practising, something pushed me here, nerves, anxious, probably the injury of last year...I suffered this year for those months.

But last couple of months I'm enjoying. I really believe that I'm going to be ready for next year. I don't know if I can win another Grand Slam, I don't know if I can do it, but I believe I can do it.

If that happens - and I believe that's going to happen soon because I feel much better - I'm going to find my level of tennis."

===============================================

I think Nadal is trying to learn to flatten his shots.
Can't wait to see it in AO!

noleisthebest wrote:

It's two different racquets, but for me, tennis he played in Cinci this year was better than anything I ever saw from Fed.

Dubai 2015 final was really good too.

noleisthebest wrote:....
I think Nadal is trying to learn to flatten his shots.
Can't wait to see it in AO!

Interesting. he can improve his game.....for sure. But he cannot afford to be any less physical than he was before.

One thing some don;t realise is that if a youngster improves his shots and timing from 20 to 24, there is no reason why 28 yo would not improve his shots too. However taking the ball earlier and heavy top spinning don't mix well, though Djoko found a good compromise...thanks to his court speed.

Another factor which allows for big improvement is anticipation. Knowing where the ball is going is of huge help too....and that comes only with experience.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:

It's two different racquets, but for me, tennis he played in Cinci this year was better than anything I ever saw from Fed.

Dubai 2015 final was really good too.

I'll rewatch it this week.
Somehow, the one in Cinci stayed with me. He was so fresh and ultra-aggressive.
And so fluent.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:....
I think Nadal is trying to learn to flatten his shots.
Can't wait to see it in AO!

Interesting. he can improve his game.....for sure. But he cannot afford to be any less physical than he was before.

One thing some don;t realise is that if a youngster improves his shots and timing from 20 to 24, there is no reason why 28 yo would not improve his shots too. However taking the ball earlier and heavy top spinning don't mix well, though Djoko found a good compromise...thanks to his court speed.

Another factor which allows for big improvement is anticipation. Knowing where the ball is going is of huge help too....and that comes only with experience.

I think, at best he can play like the occasional aggressive Murray we've seen under Mauresmo earlier this year.

Though, I doubt he'll ever catch him up with BH.

He may need another year to learn to hit the FH a little flatter, but keep the muscle.
He'll lose the crazy lifting spin, but may gain on the sheer muscling if he can learn to time the ball.
I dunno....

He could do it v Hewitt in 2004 but hewitt was also a counterpuncher...it's doing it when the ball comes fast that is very difficult.

Tenez wrote:He could do it v Hewitt in 2004 but hewitt was also a counterpuncher...it's doing it when the ball comes fast that is very difficult.

Yes...

I have a question: do you think he could be winning more with his old 4m behind the baseline game if he was given 35 seconds between the points again?

I know he gets away with over 25 secs regularly despite the occasional warning, but still, it's making him nervous as he never knows when it's going to come.

Do players still fear him (much)?

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:He could do it v Hewitt in 2004 but hewitt was also a counterpuncher...it's doing it when the ball comes fast that is very difficult.

Yes...

I have a question: do you think he could be winning more with his old 4m behind the baseline game if he was given 35 seconds between the points again?

I dunno. It certainly would help. We know how important it is already in bo3 as he has been very vocal about it in his lesser tournaments. His serve will be key (getting lots of cheap points like in 2013 and of course being able to pull more winners). I just think he can't win like he did in the past by simply being passive. Guys like Murray and Djoko are too good nowadays for that. They will run him down to exhaustion.

I know he gets away with over 25 secs regularly despite the occasional warning, but still, it's making him nervous as he never knows when it's going to come.

Do players still fear him (much)?

I think he is not worried of the warning, he is worried of simply not being able to recover on time. His matches are on average much shorter (time wise) than they used to be. It simply means he cannot refill as much and o2 is the combustible of muscles.

It's going to be interesting to see how he comes out next year.

Tenez wrote:LK, just compare any of Murray v Djoko match of 2011, 2012 with USO 2014. You will see the huge progress both made.

Then we get the AO 2015 final.

The FO encounter again, similar but the rare match in which Murray took the game to Djokovic in a BO5.

noleisthebest wrote:

legendkillar wrote:Hmmmmmm.

Not sure the logic that had fit the bill for Federer's improvement can then be applied to Djokovic.

For the reason being that I don't think Djokovic is a better player than in 2011.

It stands the reason that more experience will make any individual in any profession better. I think that formula only works provided something isn't taken out. With Djokovic that applies. I don't see anything in his game that is any better that makes it unique enough to have developed his game. He might hit the ball harder, but I don't see that as being a massive improvement that that alone has won him matches. If anything, I think Djokovic is far more less aggressive than he was in 2011. Djokovic's 2015 hasn't been as impressive as 2011. I was actually wowed with how he done it in 2011. 2015 has left me meh, because 1) He hasn't been pushed hard enough. 2) He hasn't played with any style.

He,he you don't have to believe Djokovic saying he is playing better than ever, but surely you must believe it if I say so!

He is so dominant now. Just look at the points, he must be 6000-7000 ahead of Fed and almost double Murray's.

Nadal can't touch him now and he was close in 2011, even topped him in 2013.

And before you say how Nadal is declining, here is what he said a few days ago:
=================================

"It was a tough year, because I was playing with too much anxiety for a lot of motnhs, especially at the beginning of the season.

Now I feel much better about that. Not a hundred per cent fix, but much better. (I'm) close to being 100 per cent fixed. And I am enjoying being on a tennis court, the practices, the competition.

During the first five, six, seven months of the season I was feeling very tired. Every time I was playing, every time I was practising, something pushed me here, nerves, anxious, probably the injury of last year...I suffered this year for those months.

But last couple of months I'm enjoying. I really believe that I'm going to be ready for next year. I don't know if I can win another Grand Slam, I don't know if I can do it, but I believe I can do it.

If that happens - and I believe that's going to happen soon because I feel much better - I'm going to find my level of tennis."

===============================================

I think Nadal is trying to learn to flatten his shots.
Can't wait to see it in AO!

Like I said the competition this year has been really disappointing. I don't think Djokovic is a better player. I think for me being better or improving comes without losing something in return. For me Djokovic was much more consistent in his shot making in 2011. It's the one time I think he embraced a more aggressive mindset and game.

I haven't seen him use all the tools at his disposal this year and I question whether we would see them if he was pressured more.

legendkillar wrote:
I haven't seen him use all the tools at his disposal this year and I question whether we would see them if he was pressured more.

You have not look at the 2014 USO 1/4F have you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptjrdaL1N5Y

Much better quality from both player than you would ever see in 2011. It's not close. But I know you are a nostalgic of the past.

Edberg had better volleys, pete was a better grass player, Guga had the best Bh on clay.....etc...etc....

This USO 2014 1/4 make the 2011 USO final look like amateurs. The pace and the depth is considerably faster. I can clearly see it and it's easy to prove by applying the average/rally/time ratios like I have done in the past.

Tenez wrote:

legendkillar wrote:
I haven't seen him use all the tools at his disposal this year and I question whether we would see them if he was pressured more.

You have not look at the 2014 USO 1/4F have you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptjrdaL1N5Y

Much better quality from both player than you would ever see in 2011. It's not close. But I know you are a nostalgic of the past.

Edberg had better volleys, pete was a better grass player, Guga had the best Bh on clay.....etc...etc....

I have watched it. 

To coin a phrase of yours.....one swallow doesn't make a summer

Did I not throw in the recent FO encounter?

You needn't look any further back than the recent Cinncy to see how poor the rest of the field is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eQM5PaQHb0

Is it worth arguing anylonger?